Dubai Bubble Bursts

[Fran]

If you want to sell 'homes' you have to play by 'world rules', sorry to say - Dubai can't have it's own special way or there will be no buyers - only speculators selling to each other.

I haven't tried it, but I guess with even your best efforts, having bough a property, you could not get through all the paperwork and exit within 30 days, you know the government departments here - it's near impossible to achieve.
Then you are automatically illegal in the country!

Until this years clampdowns, there were many FZ companies selling visas, but that is beside the point, you was the one who bought them into the conversation.

I say again - who will commit to a 10 or 20 year mortgage, if they are 30 days notice to exit the country?? You have to find the answer to that question?. Give the people time to find another job or for a planned exit that will match with the children schooling etc. before you start fining them AED.100 per person, per day, making it even more difficult to leave.

Don't you understand that the 30 day = temporary in the peoples minds and is very fundamental in their thoughts about living here, it effects what they will and will not buy. How will they, they buyers commit, but be ready to run at any time?

Why are you excluding the over 60's, they have a steady disposable income in their pensions, and would not buy in the first place if they didn't have the means to live here.

This is the key to finding end users for the property, give the buyer some stability in the life and the they will commit to 10 or 20 years. Without that, I say you have no buyers for even the existing property. The proof of that IS in all the empty apartments and villas now.

Why don't you address your complaints directly to RERA?
On their website there is Complaint section.

Another suggestion is : eComplain

Voicing your concerns through an Internet forum won't help you, on the contrary it will frustrate other people. This is destructive and helps no one.

 

[DelboyG]

Busted!! - Fran

Why don't you address your complaints directly to RERA?
On their website there is Complaint section.

Another suggestion is : eComplain

Voicing your concerns through an Internet forum won't help you, on the contrary it will frustrate other people. This is destructive and helps no one.

I do understand that my talk is destructive, but I only have 1 voice and it'll make no difference if I alone complain to the RERA.

I'm saying all this here in the hope that - YOU, the people who have money invested in this, will take the matter up with the developers, and if all are bringing the to the RERA then, just maybe, they'll see the light and put something in place to help this property market take off again.

It's in your, my and the countries best interest that we get down to the basics!.

 

[TommyC]

I do understand that my talk is destructive, but I only have 1 voice and it'll make no difference if I alone complain to the RERA.

I'm saying all this here in the hope that - YOU, the people who have money invested in this, will take the matter up with the developers, and if all are bringing the to the RERA then, just maybe, they'll see the light and put something in place to help this property market take off again.

It's in your, my and the countries best interest that we get down to the basics!.

Don't worry, Fran is a sales-agent desperate for commission.

More news from the _real_ world: 7DAYS - Jobs axed at developer

By the way, DelBoyG: I hope you have alreay joined the initiative! Send an email to investorslaw13 at hotmail dot com! We are currently 220 investors on the mailing list and it's increasing!

 

[Wannaberich]

Don't worry, Fran is a sales-agent desperate for commission.

More news from the _real_ world: 7DAYS - Jobs axed at developer
!

Alot more people will be losing thier jobs too.More developments well be cancelled/delayed,plus there will be other kinds of bad news coming out of Dubai.

You know why?Well theres this thing called a global recession that the world is suffering from right now.Dubai being on planet Earth, and not Mars, is affected too.Does this surprise you?

You know what will happen next after all the bad stuff?Well the bad stuff will go away in around 12/24 months and then the good stuff will come back.
The good stuff being people are re-hired,more businesses open,delayed projects are re-started,cancelled projects are brought back on.Plus property prices go up worldwide,including Dubai.

So you guys by all means post all the doom and gloom,there will be plenty out there.Do me one favour though,when the good stuff comes back then please post news of that too.
Cheers.

 

[Fran]

Three angry people, shouting in the virtual world and collecting the email addresses of another 230 will not make any difference to the government system, unfortunately.
Here is important to point out that if the three angry people lost 2 or 3 apartments, the lawmakers and their advisers lost complete projects.......go figure whom to blame.....Lehman Brothers didn't hire the right people, I guess.

If this guys (who are sharing their anger) believe that they have real issues, but not financial problems caused by the circumstances, than they should get a lawyer and fail a case in the property court. At least will allow them some more time to find solution to their issues.

 

[DelboyG]

Alot more people will be losing thier jobs too.More developments well be cancelled/delayed,plus there will be other kinds of bad news coming out of Dubai.

You know why?Well theres this thing called a global recession that the world is suffering from right now.Dubai being on planet Earth, and not Mars, is affected too.Does this surprise you?

You know what will happen next after all the bad stuff?Well the bad stuff will go away in around 12/24 months and then the good stuff will come back.
The good stuff being people are re-hired,more businesses open,delayed projects are re-started,cancelled projects are brought back on.Plus property prices go up worldwide,including Dubai.

So you guys by all means post all the doom and gloom,there will be plenty out there.Do me one favour though,when the good stuff comes back then please post news of that too.
Cheers.

Dobuy,

I had hoped to stop my posts as they are like gloom & doom, but I have to reply to you since you are one of the people who will make the Dubai downturn much longer than is necessary.

You are missing the fundamentals in this, I've heard the slowing sales was due to the summer months, then Ramadan and now blaming the world recession.

So what do we do, wait for the recession to end and then come to realize that:

1) the natural and expected buyers can't afford the property (the residents I mean).

2) The residents are actually putting themselves in a lot of risk if they do buy, (30 days to exit the country)

3) at age 60 they have to leave anyway, cutting out any chance of them retiring here.

4) Only speculators buy a property for short term, but in the end there has to be an end user who will call that property a home - somewhere to live and raise a family. Impossible that it will happen if they are on 30 days notice to leave the country.

What you are saying is just plain arrogant to think that many people will commit to this, you, Dubai and the UAE have only 2 choices

1) amend the residency rules to allow life time residency so long as you own a property.

2) Sit here looking at a lot of empty or half built buildings as a permanent reminder of this folly.

This is really a clash of 2 cultures, the end user who will consider buying into a home means long term commitment to the country where they live (they will expect commitment back from that country),and the current regulations that consider expats as 'guest workers' and therefore disposable.

The end users will win out in the end and the only question is how much damage will be done to the UAE & it's reputation before the laws are changed to make this workable.

Consider your talk of 12/24 months as a pipe dream with the current regulations in place - look to the 5-10 year range instead (it'll take that long to pickup the current slack). And yes, if I'm still here I will write about the good news - I just don't see any way it'll happen.

 

[psychiatrist]

The residence visa is a big deal, if someone can afford to buy a property on average they count as an investor. The problem is the master developers linked to the government marketed properties as being linked to the visa, and overnight made an ubrupt turn.

If someone can afford to pay for a property to completion, chances are they are not going to start being a beggar, or destitute afterwards, So many people were thinking of retiring in the UAE or owning a second home, this was a stuipid shoot first and ask questions later decision which was not practical at all, and had Abudhabis fingerprints, of fear of foreigners owning land and having rights

Even a 3yr old can see this if they are now targeting endusers and those by the way are most likely to be longer term stay immigrant workers, if they invest their earning to get a home why can they not be granted residency.

It is simply one of the quickest things they can do. Prices will fall to levels which are justifiable, and the developers would be able to make a profit because the price of construction is going down,

 

[revolutionary]

When I get my apartment shortly, I expect to be able to at least go and request that the master developer sponsors me for a residence visa. I believe several people have already achieved this in my development but clearly the government prefers people to get working visas through their employer to avoid people working illegally on resident visas.

I think this would be fair to ensure people are self-supporting. However this class of person would also appreciate security since properties are not liquid assets. If the visa needs renewing every 3 years then being able to renew up to a year early would allow a decent period of warning that you are no longer welcome and can dispose of your home at a sensible pace. This however does not help people looking to retire where any prospect of disruption once they are settled long term will be a huge deterrent.

If you are seeking to earn in the UAE (not through a sponsoring large employer) then it is reasonable for the UAE to expect you to invest in a business/office and make a long term commitment from both sides.

What I don't understand is why anyone would want to consider even renting independent of their employer if they are required to lock in to a 12 month period but could be required to leave the country within 30 days.

 

[DelboyG]

Finally people are getting the message

When I get my apartment shortly, I expect to be able to at least go and request that the master developer sponsors me for a residence visa. I believe several people have already achieved this in my development but clearly the government prefers people to get working visas through their employer to avoid people working illegally on resident visas.

I think this would be fair to ensure people are self-supporting. However this class of person would also appreciate security since properties are not liquid assets. If the visa needs renewing every 3 years then being able to renew up to a year early would allow a decent period of warning that you are no longer welcome and can dispose of your home at a sensible pace. This however does not help people looking to retire where any prospect of disruption once they are settled long term will be a huge deterrent.

If you are seeking to earn in the UAE (not through a sponsoring large employer) then it is reasonable for the UAE to expect you to invest in a business/office and make a long term commitment from both sides.

What I don't understand is why anyone would want to consider even renting independent of their employer if they are required to lock in to a 12 month period but could be required to leave the country within 30 days.

The people who have got residency visa's from the master developer will not have them renewed when the 3 years are up, check up on the latest laws. If you don't have a job here you will only be allowed to visit you investment!

The 30 days exit rule although unfair, could have been justified when it applies to employment only.

Now trying to apply those same rules to owning a home is just plain stupid, a direct dis-incentive for people to part with the money. I say, only maybe 2% of the people who could commit to this will actually do so.

If someone emigrates to UK, USA, Europe, Canada, Australia etc. they will not buy into property until they know that they are safe and secure long term in that country. Why are people expecting Dubai and the UAE to be different? Is this such a wonderful place that people will just forget their logic when they get here? Run out and sign up for a 20 - 25 year mortgage with the bank, the week that they arrive?

Most people who would buy will also look at their exit strategy, should they loose their job, where will I go?, how much ready cash do I have to make the move? what about my childrens schooling? How much time do I have to find another job? How long before I have to leave the country? You can see what a dis-incentive that 30 days is right. It's not about people wanting to stay here and get state funding to live on.

All this and that fact that you buy and then still pay rent in the form of unregulated maintenance fees and are at the mercy of the greedy banks when it comes to the monthly cost of your home. Then keep in mind that you have to maintain another home in your country of residency because age 60 you have to return there.

Impossible, not workable, it's not in the customers interest to sign up for this, therefore they will NOT.

I just don't understand why no-one in the government sees this or maybe they do and already know that it was all just a giant pyramid scheme?

 

[TommyC]

Three angry people, shouting in the virtual world and collecting the email addresses of another 230 will not make any difference to the government system, unfortunately.
Here is important to point out that if the three angry people lost 2 or 3 apartments, the lawmakers and their advisers lost complete projects.......go figure whom to blame.....Lehman Brothers didn't hire the right people, I guess.

If this guys (who are sharing their anger) believe that they have real issues, but not financial problems caused by the circumstances, than they should get a lawyer and fail a case in the property court. At least will allow them some more time to find solution to their issues.

Well, this is indeed a financial problem caused by the circumstances, no mortgage available and a lot of people losing money at stockmarkets etc. The frustrating part in this is the fact that the government (well, not the government, but rather a department) decided to change the law that protected investors. Now there is NO incentive for developers to find solutions rather than run away at first given opportunity, all this made in the name of "everyone is a flipper. burn them!" without even questioning the developers position in this (the REAL speculators). I'm not an _encouraged_ "flipper", I'm an end-user without a mortgage fro the record.

To add to the frustration is the fact that sales-agents and developers are still claiming that everything is normal to make themselves a bit of quick extra money, and this being based on outright lies. I know this for a fact, I've contacted developers and talked to sales-agents anonymously as a prospective buyer just to find out what the talk is like today. Outright lies! Not hard to understand because they won't be responsible in the end anyway, when the papers are signed it's 100% the buyers responsibility and the salesagent/developer can, while fetching their commission cheque, claim "You shouldn't listen to me I'm just a sales-agent, you should investigate yourself". Since this forum attracts potential investors, of course it can't be only the sales-agents side of the story told but rather the full picture of what is going on TODAY.

A lot of investments seems to be based on high rental prices, who can guarantee that will continue? There are already a lot of empty apartments, and with people losing their jobs we will at some stage reach the point when the equation says it's more beneficial to lower the prices and rent out more apartments.

Of course, things can change, but to tell the story from only one side or act like the long-term give opportunities in the short-term just isn't fair neither true.

The link that you posted (Fran),was some decent reading anyway: http://www.equity-reports.com/files/0010/UAE-property-2008-11-30-EFG-report-26-pages.pdf

 

[PropGuy]

I just don't understand why no-one in the government sees this or maybe they do and already know that it was all just a giant pyramid scheme?

I think most of them don't. It all depends what talk goes around in their circle, same as in other group. It is called group think. And their group is not in this situation so they don't understand it.