J
Jain and Chris
Senior Member
Are you using the lawyer recommended by the developer / agent? If so, you really need to get an independent lawyer who will act in your sole interests.
thetravelbug
Banned
I am sorry to sound harsh and unsympathetic but most of your problems seem to come from not understanding or taking issue with what you have signed in the past. As Jain and Chris have already pointed out on this thread or maybe another, people do not seem bothered to read carefully the contracts they are given to sign and only complain when things go wrong and there are problems.
I read somewhere on one of your postings that under the rental agreement you could only use your apartment for 2 weeks a year (or something) so no surprise that when you turn up high season you cannot use it.
Maybe it is a little unreasonable not being able to see it but I am sure if you had arranged something prior to your visit with the management it could have been sorted.
I am not sure what you mean by forced to sign an agreement about something....no one can force you to sign something. It seems most problems come from misunderstandings, not knowing exactly what you have signed etc and down to not having a decent lawyer to explain all the aspects of the agreements and make any changes you wanted (although changes to contracts with large developers not easy).
I did offer to help you sort these problems out at a much early stage as I know one of the directors of the developer but never heard anything from you - just more complaints on here.
I suggest as Jain and Chris say, get yourself a decent lawyer and check through all the paperwork and see what you have agreed to.
As for taking it to court, sorry but think you have no chance. You signed everything, thus agreeing to it. You paid for your apartment and have it, you agreed to a rental agreement and its underway.....although likely to be little rental this season as complex only opened in June I think.
I read somewhere on one of your postings that under the rental agreement you could only use your apartment for 2 weeks a year (or something) so no surprise that when you turn up high season you cannot use it.
Maybe it is a little unreasonable not being able to see it but I am sure if you had arranged something prior to your visit with the management it could have been sorted.
I am not sure what you mean by forced to sign an agreement about something....no one can force you to sign something. It seems most problems come from misunderstandings, not knowing exactly what you have signed etc and down to not having a decent lawyer to explain all the aspects of the agreements and make any changes you wanted (although changes to contracts with large developers not easy).
I did offer to help you sort these problems out at a much early stage as I know one of the directors of the developer but never heard anything from you - just more complaints on here.
I suggest as Jain and Chris say, get yourself a decent lawyer and check through all the paperwork and see what you have agreed to.
As for taking it to court, sorry but think you have no chance. You signed everything, thus agreeing to it. You paid for your apartment and have it, you agreed to a rental agreement and its underway.....although likely to be little rental this season as complex only opened in June I think.
R
rabarbaro
New Member
rental agreement
Hi to everybody, it looks like it's better to explain as probably I sound a mad lady screaming for nothing, as Travelbug thinks...
regarding the past, the problem I had in the past, I've asked for suggestions to a lawyer and sorted things out. For the POA i've appointed the lawyer of the estate agent and builder society. I soon discovered it has been a stupid thing.
I then, after having also written here, looked for an indipendent lawyer and asked everythong about the doubts I had. I received the informations, paid for the service and that's it.
The problem I have now with the rental agreement is that, after having signed in 2006 he rental agreement, at the very beginning of everything I then signed an appendix to it.
I've been asked by the Building society to sign it, and I've been forced means also that they called me at least 20 times to have it signed.
I signed it, I have a copy of it signed and stamped by them.
In this appendix there is written that I had time till the 25th may to put furniture in my apartment, if that failed as from the 26th may the contract would have been null and void.
I couldn t do it within the 25th may, the furniture arrived on the 10th june, and I have proof of it.
To me, and to the appendix at the contract we both signed, our contract is NULL and VOID, as written.
After that date I wrote as least 10 times to the society, asking how to take possesion of my property, who has the keys and so on. I never got a reply.
NEVER.
That's why I've decided to fly there and find out what was going on.
Not because I'm stupid but because our contract is, as written, NULL and VOID.
And probably the society would have told me after the summer season...." money ? contract ? our contract is null and void, why do you want money ? "
Regarding Travelbug I didn't use your service ( is not an offer of help, if an offer of service when you ask for money ) because you know the society.
I preferred someone that had nothing to do with them and a lawyer was, in my opinion, better than an other real estate agent as you are.
The reason I'm writing is to get more suggestions and informations, I've already written to the lawyer but it seems she's on holiday. At least she hasn't answered to me yet.
In my opinion, and for my experience, with GBS society doesn't work well, they are not reliable at all. This is only the last straw but I know other english people that bought there and ( i know at least 10 families ) they all had problems.
For instance they didn-t want us to ask for a snagging service before act 16, they insisted in having it after act 16. After act 16 the society that had to organize the snagging took an appoinment with GBS but when they arrived in Saint Thomas they were refused to enter and do their work.
An other lady had a management contract without guaranteed rental but they refuse to give her a calendar saying when is occupied and when is free and so on. If they fail to do that and they keep her not informed about it, at the end of the season.....they will give her an handfull of peanuts saying " sorry, it has been empty".... or not ?
Anyway, this is what's happening....and Travelbug is right in saying that one should read carefully the contract, and I did it. The problem is that you can never be "smart" enough, they are always "smarter", when somebody wants to cheat you the only way to save yourself is to stay far....
That's why I would never suggest a friend to buy something so far from home and from your own culture !
Anyway, if someone had problems like this and/or wants to give me advice I'll accept it with pleasure.
Regards
Daniela
Hi to everybody, it looks like it's better to explain as probably I sound a mad lady screaming for nothing, as Travelbug thinks...
regarding the past, the problem I had in the past, I've asked for suggestions to a lawyer and sorted things out. For the POA i've appointed the lawyer of the estate agent and builder society. I soon discovered it has been a stupid thing.
I then, after having also written here, looked for an indipendent lawyer and asked everythong about the doubts I had. I received the informations, paid for the service and that's it.
The problem I have now with the rental agreement is that, after having signed in 2006 he rental agreement, at the very beginning of everything I then signed an appendix to it.
I've been asked by the Building society to sign it, and I've been forced means also that they called me at least 20 times to have it signed.
I signed it, I have a copy of it signed and stamped by them.
In this appendix there is written that I had time till the 25th may to put furniture in my apartment, if that failed as from the 26th may the contract would have been null and void.
I couldn t do it within the 25th may, the furniture arrived on the 10th june, and I have proof of it.
To me, and to the appendix at the contract we both signed, our contract is NULL and VOID, as written.
After that date I wrote as least 10 times to the society, asking how to take possesion of my property, who has the keys and so on. I never got a reply.
NEVER.
That's why I've decided to fly there and find out what was going on.
Not because I'm stupid but because our contract is, as written, NULL and VOID.
And probably the society would have told me after the summer season...." money ? contract ? our contract is null and void, why do you want money ? "
Regarding Travelbug I didn't use your service ( is not an offer of help, if an offer of service when you ask for money ) because you know the society.
I preferred someone that had nothing to do with them and a lawyer was, in my opinion, better than an other real estate agent as you are.
The reason I'm writing is to get more suggestions and informations, I've already written to the lawyer but it seems she's on holiday. At least she hasn't answered to me yet.
In my opinion, and for my experience, with GBS society doesn't work well, they are not reliable at all. This is only the last straw but I know other english people that bought there and ( i know at least 10 families ) they all had problems.
For instance they didn-t want us to ask for a snagging service before act 16, they insisted in having it after act 16. After act 16 the society that had to organize the snagging took an appoinment with GBS but when they arrived in Saint Thomas they were refused to enter and do their work.
An other lady had a management contract without guaranteed rental but they refuse to give her a calendar saying when is occupied and when is free and so on. If they fail to do that and they keep her not informed about it, at the end of the season.....they will give her an handfull of peanuts saying " sorry, it has been empty".... or not ?
Anyway, this is what's happening....and Travelbug is right in saying that one should read carefully the contract, and I did it. The problem is that you can never be "smart" enough, they are always "smarter", when somebody wants to cheat you the only way to save yourself is to stay far....
That's why I would never suggest a friend to buy something so far from home and from your own culture !
Anyway, if someone had problems like this and/or wants to give me advice I'll accept it with pleasure.
Regards
Daniela
thetravelbug
Banned
where???
Maybe you would like to point out where I asked you for money to help you sort out the problems you were having??? I asked you to contact me by PM if you wanted some help. I never asked or expected you to pay me for it. I am not connected to the St Thomas complex as a real estate agent but because my boyfriend's family in law were the developers and now run the hotel and management part. If you had simply contacted me and explained in full the problems I could have arranged a few phone calls and probably had many of your questions answered quickly. It is because I know them a little that I may have been able to help.
I do not think you are screaming about nothing, I accept you appear to have had issues with a development. That is not unusual in Bulgaria or else where. But your posts often make little sense and are not well explained and things seem to contradict each other from time to time.
By Building Society do you mean the developer/builder or a money lender? I presume builder???
Whilst it may seem on first glance that the contract would become null and void if furniture not put in by that date, if there was no correspondence from the developer or management company telling you they were rescinding the rental agreement and now no longer valid, then I guess depending on the legal wording of the contract and appendix it probably just gave them the right to do so, not that it would automatically happen.
Were you contacting the developer for answers and the keys or the management company? Once the development was complete then the management company would have taken over (different personelle, different set up, contacts etc) and did you try going through your agent? I would have thought sorting things through the agent and getting answers that way was the first step.
I have not seen any other complaints on this or other forums by English that have bought there so it is a little hard to know what others are complaining about. It is usual not to have the snagging done until right at the end. Snagging lists should usually be done by the client themselves, a trusted friend or sometimes the agency, although an independent person is better so not sure what society you are referring to.
About the other lady - it is hard to comment without having sight of the legal documentation but I guess that as the development only opened in June this year, that bookings would be fairly low anyway (and was certainly quiet) they were hoping to rent out the apartment on an ad hoc basis and thus account to her that way. Especially if she had no guaranteed rental agreement then why were they renting it out anyway? Surely if she only signed the management agreement and not the renal agreement she had not agreed for them to rent it out at all. Usually how it works - not something in the middle.
It does not appear you have been cheated out of any money, maybe there have been misunderstandings as to legal interpretations of clauses, appendices etc but the real problem appears to be that you thought rental agreement was void but now seems it wasn't and therefore you will have to wait and see what your lawyer says, although if a matter of interpretation then each party can argue each way. I suppose if it is taken that the rental agreement is still valid then they cannot simply let owners turn up and use their apartments outside the agreed free weeks as it would cause chaos with bookings. But if not rented out for that particular period do not see what you could not be allowed in to at least view it.
With regard to the basement, I cannot comment for your apartment block or the one your friend's apartment is in but I saw no evidence of damp in the apartment block I was in and the spa facilities in the basement of the hotel were amazing - no sign of any damp. But any new build or renovation will have teething problems and I am sure that they will sort the damp out over time.
All I can end on is that having seen many developments in Bulgaria, this stood out as very high quality, fantastic location and something out of the ordinary.
Maybe you would like to point out where I asked you for money to help you sort out the problems you were having??? I asked you to contact me by PM if you wanted some help. I never asked or expected you to pay me for it. I am not connected to the St Thomas complex as a real estate agent but because my boyfriend's family in law were the developers and now run the hotel and management part. If you had simply contacted me and explained in full the problems I could have arranged a few phone calls and probably had many of your questions answered quickly. It is because I know them a little that I may have been able to help.
I do not think you are screaming about nothing, I accept you appear to have had issues with a development. That is not unusual in Bulgaria or else where. But your posts often make little sense and are not well explained and things seem to contradict each other from time to time.
By Building Society do you mean the developer/builder or a money lender? I presume builder???
Whilst it may seem on first glance that the contract would become null and void if furniture not put in by that date, if there was no correspondence from the developer or management company telling you they were rescinding the rental agreement and now no longer valid, then I guess depending on the legal wording of the contract and appendix it probably just gave them the right to do so, not that it would automatically happen.
Were you contacting the developer for answers and the keys or the management company? Once the development was complete then the management company would have taken over (different personelle, different set up, contacts etc) and did you try going through your agent? I would have thought sorting things through the agent and getting answers that way was the first step.
I have not seen any other complaints on this or other forums by English that have bought there so it is a little hard to know what others are complaining about. It is usual not to have the snagging done until right at the end. Snagging lists should usually be done by the client themselves, a trusted friend or sometimes the agency, although an independent person is better so not sure what society you are referring to.
About the other lady - it is hard to comment without having sight of the legal documentation but I guess that as the development only opened in June this year, that bookings would be fairly low anyway (and was certainly quiet) they were hoping to rent out the apartment on an ad hoc basis and thus account to her that way. Especially if she had no guaranteed rental agreement then why were they renting it out anyway? Surely if she only signed the management agreement and not the renal agreement she had not agreed for them to rent it out at all. Usually how it works - not something in the middle.
It does not appear you have been cheated out of any money, maybe there have been misunderstandings as to legal interpretations of clauses, appendices etc but the real problem appears to be that you thought rental agreement was void but now seems it wasn't and therefore you will have to wait and see what your lawyer says, although if a matter of interpretation then each party can argue each way. I suppose if it is taken that the rental agreement is still valid then they cannot simply let owners turn up and use their apartments outside the agreed free weeks as it would cause chaos with bookings. But if not rented out for that particular period do not see what you could not be allowed in to at least view it.
With regard to the basement, I cannot comment for your apartment block or the one your friend's apartment is in but I saw no evidence of damp in the apartment block I was in and the spa facilities in the basement of the hotel were amazing - no sign of any damp. But any new build or renovation will have teething problems and I am sure that they will sort the damp out over time.
All I can end on is that having seen many developments in Bulgaria, this stood out as very high quality, fantastic location and something out of the ordinary.
R
rabarbaro
New Member
Builder society
I know it can sometimes sounds unbelievable...and not clear...
So many things happened that to explain everything in detail I should write a book.
I'm not english so it may also happen that sometimes I don't use the correct word.
Most of the "misunderstanding" come from this:
GBS AD builder society
GBS Invest maintenance onsite
GBS Tour rental management company
GBS Flora hotel management service onsite
At the end all the contracts I've signed, the building contract, the maintenance and the rental agreement are all signed by the same person. No stamp, no official paper, nothing that distinguish one from the other.
I've always talked to 1 person for all kind of problems. It seems she works alone for GBS. If there is a problem of sizes, of receipt, of deed, of maintenance, of everything...I have only 1 person as a reference. And this person NEVER answers...
This is confusing...I know...
daniela
I know it can sometimes sounds unbelievable...and not clear...
So many things happened that to explain everything in detail I should write a book.
I'm not english so it may also happen that sometimes I don't use the correct word.
Most of the "misunderstanding" come from this:
GBS AD builder society
GBS Invest maintenance onsite
GBS Tour rental management company
GBS Flora hotel management service onsite
At the end all the contracts I've signed, the building contract, the maintenance and the rental agreement are all signed by the same person. No stamp, no official paper, nothing that distinguish one from the other.
I've always talked to 1 person for all kind of problems. It seems she works alone for GBS. If there is a problem of sizes, of receipt, of deed, of maintenance, of everything...I have only 1 person as a reference. And this person NEVER answers...
This is confusing...I know...
daniela
R
rabarbaro
New Member
Regarding Saint Thomas I agree, anyway.
The complex is beautiful, really beautiful and the SPA fantastic.
Nothing at all to complain about it.
I'm happy I've bought there, I only think that this society, probably because too big, is trying to do too many things and does nothing in the proper way.
We have a forum among us, so we write there our problems and we exchange email among us, discussing things and facts.
The complex is beautiful, really beautiful and the SPA fantastic.
Nothing at all to complain about it.
I'm happy I've bought there, I only think that this society, probably because too big, is trying to do too many things and does nothing in the proper way.
We have a forum among us, so we write there our problems and we exchange email among us, discussing things and facts.
R
rabarbaro
New Member
Last thing, regarding the appendix of my contract.
They wrote it and I've signed it.
There is written that, if within the 26th may the apartment was not furnished the contract is NULL and VOID. It's very clear, both in english and bulgarian.
I copy and paste it here:
.......the following appendix to the Mediation Agreement of ….. ..........2007, hereinafter referred to as the “Contract ” was executed, concluded and entered into, whereby the Parties agreed as follows:
1. Pursuant to Art. 2, paragraph 4 of the Contract the PRINCIPAL is obliged to deliver a fully furnished apartment (subject of the Contract),in a proper condition for accommodation service taking into account the requirements of the tour –operators, according to the agreed terms in the Contract, by the 25th May 2008 at the latest.
2. In the occasion where the PRINCIPAL, fails to fulfill their obligation fully described in the above-mentioned article by the 25th May 2008, both Parties agree that the Mediation Agreement of …… 2007, will be deemed null and void as of 26 May 2008.
3.
1. This appendix takes effect once it is signed.
2. The other terms of the Contract shall continue to apply as long as they do not contradict the above mentioned.
This appendix shall be deemed to form an integral part of the Contract. The present Appendix has been drafted and signed by the parties and each party has received one original of the Appendix.
To me it's clear, at the beginning I was not happy at all with this...after a while I began to digest it and consider myself free from the contract. I have a signed and stamped copy of it...
They wrote it and I've signed it.
There is written that, if within the 26th may the apartment was not furnished the contract is NULL and VOID. It's very clear, both in english and bulgarian.
I copy and paste it here:
.......the following appendix to the Mediation Agreement of ….. ..........2007, hereinafter referred to as the “Contract ” was executed, concluded and entered into, whereby the Parties agreed as follows:
1. Pursuant to Art. 2, paragraph 4 of the Contract the PRINCIPAL is obliged to deliver a fully furnished apartment (subject of the Contract),in a proper condition for accommodation service taking into account the requirements of the tour –operators, according to the agreed terms in the Contract, by the 25th May 2008 at the latest.
2. In the occasion where the PRINCIPAL, fails to fulfill their obligation fully described in the above-mentioned article by the 25th May 2008, both Parties agree that the Mediation Agreement of …… 2007, will be deemed null and void as of 26 May 2008.
3.
1. This appendix takes effect once it is signed.
2. The other terms of the Contract shall continue to apply as long as they do not contradict the above mentioned.
This appendix shall be deemed to form an integral part of the Contract. The present Appendix has been drafted and signed by the parties and each party has received one original of the Appendix.
To me it's clear, at the beginning I was not happy at all with this...after a while I began to digest it and consider myself free from the contract. I have a signed and stamped copy of it...
E
emanon
New Member
Hi Rabarbaro,
Sorry to hear about your problems. I have also purchased in Saint Thomas and have the 2 year guaranteed rental income (although I went for the developer pack).
What is the forum you mention that you and other owners use to discuss problems - I would like to Join!
Sorry to hear about your problems. I have also purchased in Saint Thomas and have the 2 year guaranteed rental income (although I went for the developer pack).
What is the forum you mention that you and other owners use to discuss problems - I would like to Join!
R
rabarbaro
New Member
forum
here is the link,
if you want we can talk about the management contract, there are a lot of "holes" in it....
in which bulding have you bought ? I'm in Vela....
Free forum : Saint Thomas Residences Sozopol/Owner
here is the link,
if you want we can talk about the management contract, there are a lot of "holes" in it....
in which bulding have you bought ? I'm in Vela....
E
emanon
New Member
Thanks for that - I'll join some time over the weekend!
I very nearly bought in Vela, but I ended up buying in Bellatrix....
I very nearly bought in Vela, but I ended up buying in Bellatrix....
N
Nikita999
New Member
Do you know anybody from Vitosha village?
P
Pat Worthington
New Member
Hi Daniela
We are having problems with property we bought. I would like to hear more about your problems - they seem similar to ours. Contact me by phone 028 90777409 or by email [email protected]
Hope to hear from you soon
Pat and David
P
Pat Worthington
New Member
Hi Daniela
We are having problems with property we bought. I would like to hear more about your problems - they seem similar to ours. Contact me by phone 028 90777409 or by email [email protected]
Hope to hear from you soon
Pat and David
We are having problems with property we bought. I would like to hear more about your problems - they seem similar to ours. Contact me by phone 028 90777409 or by email [email protected]
Hope to hear from you soon
Pat and David
C
charlie1960
New Member
Bansko
Hi Ive got an apartment, completed Oct 2008 needs furnishing would like to sell.
Its in the Panorama development which is still being finished off should be ready for this winter season 2009.
Hi Ive got an apartment, completed Oct 2008 needs furnishing would like to sell.
Its in the Panorama development which is still being finished off should be ready for this winter season 2009.
