Marsa Alam

[PierreM]

Howzit guys!
If you want to use the one lawyer they recommend, the one seddon lawyer, then fine but you can use any legal advice you want. Hey, you don't even need a lawyer for marsa alam.
I mean, they send the contracts and the title deeds, anyway if they f"ck up, they would be responsible for misleading and illegal information.
I think it's a european thing not to trust anyone. I mean i trust the agent and i trust the developper, they're both real and have a track record. If you think this resort is dodgy, then you should never ever invest with african developers
I am no expert in law but i have a bit of experience in investing ; my contract is in english, even if it was in portuguese, and if i had to complain in egyptian courts, i could get a translator to do it for me and ask the developer to pay for it along with court costs.
If your agent send you the contract in arabic, you are going to pay for the translation, right?
How could you be sure the arabic version would say the same thing as the english one?
Being from a 11 official languages country, the contracts are in english because if i buy in natal and i have a contract in zulu, how am i going to check it's not talking nonsense?
You know what, maybe people are finding excuses not to invest, it think the arabic concern is just an excuse, it's not a big issue. I still trust them if they say it's dutch court then it will be dutch court, if it were to be arabic court, then i'll translate the contract, sue them and make them pay everything and they would have extra issues for misleading and illegal information, they would pay extra compensations.
Investing is about trust, if you don't trust the companies, then you will never invest and you will never make good money. I am middle class and I have 7 properties now, I would still work in fruit and veg if I hadnt trust anyone.

One last thing, lawyers are business men, mark my words: it's in thier interest to scare you so they could charge you more for more work... they are sharks! Be careful with the one lawyer you pick.

 

[samui13]

Howzit guys!
If you want to use the one lawyer they recommend, the one seddon lawyer, then fine but you can use any legal advice you want. Hey, you don't even need a lawyer for marsa alam.
I mean, they send the contracts and the title deeds, anyway if they f"ck up, they would be responsible for misleading and illegal information.
I think it's a european thing not to trust anyone. I mean i trust the agent and i trust the developper, they're both real and have a track record. If you think this resort is dodgy, then you should never ever invest with african developers
I am no expert in law but i have a bit of experience in investing ; my contract is in english, even if it was in portuguese, and if i had to complain in egyptian courts, i could get a translator to do it for me and ask the developer to pay for it along with court costs.
If your agent send you the contract in arabic, you are going to pay for the translation, right?
How could you be sure the arabic version would say the same thing as the english one?
Being from a 11 official languages country, the contracts are in english because if i buy in natal and i have a contract in zulu, how am i going to check it's not talking nonsense?
You know what, maybe people are finding excuses not to invest, it think the arabic concern is just an excuse, it's not a big issue. I still trust them if they say it's dutch court then it will be dutch court, if it were to be arabic court, then i'll translate the contract, sue them and make them pay everything and they would have extra issues for misleading and illegal information, they would pay extra compensations.
Investing is about trust, if you don't trust the companies, then you will never invest and you will never make good money. I am middle class and I have 7 properties now, I would still work in fruit and veg if I hadnt trust anyone.

One last thing, lawyers are business men, mark my words: it's in thier interest to scare you so they could charge you more for more work... they are sharks! Be careful with the one lawyer you pick.

i think some of what you have written there is not very good advice.
I quote " Hey, you don't even need a lawyer for marsa alam. "

I think this is absolutely ridiculous. Of course you need a lawyer.

I quote " I mean, they send the contracts and the title deeds, anyway if they f"ck up, they would be responsible for misleading and illegal information. "

You are correct, they would be responsible for misleading and illegal information, but what would you be able to do about it.

I quote " I am no expert in law "

That is very clear

I quote " If your agent send you the contract in arabic, you are going to pay for the translation, right? "

No IPI agreed in the end to issue us with an Arabic and English contract

I quote " How could you be sure the arabic version would say the same thing as the english one? "

Because my lawyer is Egyptian and he can read Arabic, and write Arabic too, he is very clever !!!

I quote " I still trust them if they say it's dutch court then it will be dutch court, if it were to be arabic court, then i'll translate the contract, sue them and make them pay everything and they would have extra issues for misleading and illegal information, they would pay extra compensations. "

Do you know how much something like this would cost. I dont either and I would not like to go through legal proceedings either. Time off work, instructing lawyers, hotel costs, flights......... It all costs money.

The way I see the contract issue is that if in the worst case scenario, IPI failed and my money was lost for what ever reason, I would be expected to fight IPI in a Dutch court. Imagine finding out that the courts would not recognise the case as the land was not with Holland. OK so I will take it to the courts of Egypt. Present my English contract to the judge only to hear him say that he does not recognise it as it is written in English and not in Arabic.
The contract issue for myself was only one of the reasons that we pulled out. I am a senior manager within a large construction company within the UK whos clients include some of the biggest blue chip companys. Had I written a letter/email to one of my clients with the contents with which a letter written to my wife was written, then I would expect to be in the boardroom getting some form of bolloc*ing. I am a professional who as said works for a professional company and would never contemplate sending a letter to a client like this. When we complained to our agent, I would have hoped that they passed the message on that we were not happy with the contents of his letter and would have either expected a follow up letter from them or a telephone call from them. We recieved neither and we are also still waiting for our " FULLY REFUNDABLE DEPOSIT " to be returned.
There were also things in the contract that I didnt like. One of them was regarding the developer being able to inform the buyer that the project would not be finished on time and that the developer would get 2 months grace. I asked them to confirm to me that they would only be able to do this ONCE and not send me a letter every 7 weeks informing me that the project would be another 2 months.
The construction was due to have started a while ago now and as a realist, and a person who has been in construction for many years, I can not see this project being complete on time.

There are other factors that contributed to us pulling out but I will not go into that on this forum for legal reasons.

Stew

 

[DC]

I think every one needs to relax, ask questions to the appropriate people.

eg. Lawyer, Developer , Agent and in this case Stark as well.

And get resolution. Chit chat is fine, but lets get the real questions and answers.

You pay a lawyer to do a professional job to protect you.
Your agent provides a service for you and should answer questions.
The developer gets the licences, and builds the property.

It is that simple.

Things need bringing into line. With process, questions and answers. ie. It needs to be controlled and the information to peoples questions should be put out in public.

Ideally from the appropriate party, eg. Developer, the management company Stark, the lawyers.

Otherwise it stays as it is, information all over the place, and emotions running high and a little wide, and wild.

Good luck. thanks D

 

[NeilHollingsworth]

I think the issue with the contract being in Arabic is not just in case it goes to court if there are issues. You need an Arabic contract for the courts to register the apartments and register the electric and water meters etc... If you have an English one you will need to have it translated before you can complete on your property.

 

[samui13]

Ok I have spoken and tried the trio.

Stark
Zeiad Yehia
IPI UK

Stark spoken too, waiting on a phone call back to resolve things.

Mr Zeiad Yehia, spoke too, out of respect to the people paying Mr Zeiad Yehia, I can give people information who are contributing to his legal costs Other people will have to use their own lawyers. Zeiad Yehia contributers please be in touch.

IPI UK are away until August 18th.

Thank you.

PM sent, please either reply to PM or by email, many thanks

 

[East London]

Can't really comment on some of your Issues,but as a buyer in Zafarana everyone will be issued contracts when the resort is completed, are you sure IPI were never going to issue arabic contacts to buyers of marsa alam?? The other thing I have noticed is people seem really nervous which is understandable when parting with loads of money but please can people get their facts correct when comparing with Zaf, Most of the buyers in Zaf are very happy with IPI, yes there is a little delay 6 months which most of us get back in the guarantee rent.
and yes one of two of the saltwater pools will not be built. In my opinion I have been very impressed with IPI. There are monthly news letters informing us of developments, we have had a parties arranged by IPI both in Holland and in England. My queries are always answered by phone or e-mail Please don’t this as a criticism but find out the facts first.

Before I bought in Zafarana rumours were flying around there was a funny gas smell near the resort, some people were saying there is no such thing as a guaranteed rent, just look now there are lots of developers who now offer this!

I AM NOT AN AGENT OR EITHER WORK FOR IPI. JUST A HUMBLE INVESTER.

 

[East London]

i meaning to say everyone will be given a arabic contract when the Zafarana resort is completed.

 

[PierreM]

Stew, You are obviously very bitter as you have issues with ipi and your agent. That's bad news, I'm sorry for you.

Good luck to get your deposit back, I hope you cancelled before the 29 days limit, but I am sure your egyptian lawyer would have warned you.

You said you're a construction professional from a professional company, so what? I own 7 properties, is your opinion better than mine? don't think so, I own more than 2 million sterlings worth of properties at 32 so I am not doing too bad man. At least I know where I stand, if you see what I mean stew.

Your lawyer is egyptian, good, that doesn't make him a translator, and as a professional working for a professional company, you know that in a legal document, every word is important. My lawyers are from different countries they would certainly not try to translate a document without a professional translator.That shows how serious is yours if he told you he could translate a legal document all by himself.

My 2 lawyers have reviewed the due diligence, they have reviewed the forms and contract, everything is fine. They told me that seddons is doing a good job and I almost don't need them, that's why I said you don't need a lawyer, I should have explained, fair enough.

But that's not the point. Even if you had to take it to egyptian court, which is not a sure fact, you would have to have your contract translated by a professional, so it doesn't matter what language it is. The contract you signed is in english and you agreed to it, so the exact translation in any language will be no different.
Again, it is a small issue, I don't understand all the fuss about it. It's a detail, it's certainly not offputting.

Goldberg Global is absolutely right, if you read this forum and you're a first time investor, go to see your lawyer and personal banker for advice, compare different agencies and developers, study what's on the market, who is reliable and who is not but please do not listen to bitter people trying to scare you away.
Ask people you know and trust, not some keyboard warrior with a vengeance , they could be anyone, lawyers, developers, estate agents, who knows.

I am just a fairly experienced investor who bought in marsa alam, I know for an absolute fact that this one project and the people working on it are trustworthy and that there are good chances I will make good money out of it. I trust the people who advise me and i trust the people i dealt with. I don't trust internet rumours over professionals. I am very enthusiastic about this resort and I just wanted to share that with my fellow investors of this website.

That was just a feedback, not a professional advice.

 

[Jacky Hep]

"Stew, You are obviously very bitter as you have issues with ipi and your agent. That's bad news, I'm sorry for you.................

My 2 lawyers have reviewed the due diligence, they have reviewed the forms and contract, everything is fine. They told me that seddons is doing a good job and I almost don't need them, that's why I said you don't need a lawyer, I should have explained, fair enough."



The DD looked fine to me in that it explained the current situation very well. I was also grateful for IPI providing it. I recognise that it works both ways; it protects the buyer by providing important information on which to base a decision, but it also protects the seller if the buyer goes ahead despite any risks made apparent by the DD as one cannmot later claim not to have known of those risks. The bottom line for the buyer is are the risks worth it.

Regards

Jacky

 

[optom39]

Cost of utilities

Hi All
Just been reading the contract and have realised that the second draft says that owners taking up the rental agreement will be invoiced yearly for water and electricity. I thought these were included! Has anyone brought this up with IPI, and how much are these bills likely to cost?

 

[Cliff277]

Hi All
Just been reading the contract and have realised that the second draft says that owners taking up the rental agreement will be invoiced yearly for water and electricity. I thought these were included! Has anyone brought this up with IPI, and how much are these bills likely to cost?

Hi Optom 39
I queried this with Sue and she said that if you have not taken the rental agreement then the charges are yours and if you have taken the rental agreement then all charges shall be borne by the management company.
Hope this helps
Cliff

 

[thepupp1e]

Hi All
Just been reading the contract and have realised that the second draft says that owners taking up the rental agreement will be invoiced yearly for water and electricity. I thought these were included! Has anyone brought this up with IPI, and how much are these bills likely to cost?

Hi
We also queried this with IPI. We are in the rental agreement and we were told that the utilities charge was likely to be in the region of 10 Euros per month. Both the fixed charge and the utilities charge will be deducted from the gross rental income by the management company before it is distributed to the owners.

 

[anthonyday]

Hi all,

Completely agree with you Pierre. I have bought in Zafarana and am completely happy with all that has gone on so far there. I too have invested in multiple properties over the years and have quickly realized to rely on the advice of people I know and trust, not all of this speculation from completely anonymous people on a forum full of first time buyers.

Tony

 

[samui13]

Sorry for us being a forum full of first time buyers - if you dont like it then please go elsewhere!!!!!!!! None of us were or are anti-IPI, we were just all having open discussions between us to help each other along the way. Its only when people come on here trying to belittle us for having concerns about our hard earned cash that we start to get a little peed off.

Please feel free to give and receive advice but do not belittle people for checking things out.

Lou

 

[Cliff277]

Hi
We also queried this with IPI. We are in the rental agreement and we were told that the utilities charge was likely to be in the region of 10 Euros per month. Both the fixed charge and the utilities charge will be deducted from the gross rental income by the management company before it is distributed to the owners.

Hi All
Regards the Water and Electric charges I have just queried it again with Sue Lovett at IPI
And here is her reply.

Article 6 Revenues and charges
All annual costs, such as maintenance, service, insurance, joint facilities, local taxes and the like, shall be borne by the developer if the buyer uses the letting agreement under Article 3. If the letting agreement no longer applies, the costs shall be borne by the buyer. These costs are € 70,00 per month. Beside these fixed monthly costs the costs for the consumption for electricity and water will be invoiced to the owner. These costs will be invoiced yearly. Both the fixed and variable costs are due to yearly inflation and indexation by governmental increases.

Therefore, if you are take out the rental agreement the management company is responsible for electric and water.

Kindest regards,
Sue Lovett
IPI International Property Investors bv
IPI International Property Investors UK Limited

Cliff

 

[PierreM]

The maintenance fee is 50 euros a month/600 euros a year which include water and electricity.
If you opt for the rental guarantee, it is included. You will be charged if you go over the limit allocated.
Not sure for the suites but I think it is also taken care of if you take the pool rental.

Lou, I was not bashing the first time buyers at all. I was just saying that if it's your first time, you should take the information you read on this one forum very carefully. Ipi 's competition could spread rumours in order to scare customers away, because the project is good, so because they can't compete with their dodgy developments or over priced properties, they will bash the product you are interested in, if that makes sense. Read the internet and magazines but look at the bigger picture, who is working for who, what experience they have etc...
Most of agents have never bought a property abroad, journalists on tv and magazines are the same.
When I first bought I was lost, i didn't know anything at all, I trusted the agent and the product and guess what? they were right, the property in Jo'burg earns me around 6% a year on rental and 6 years later it is worth 3 times what it was.

I tell you what, before I invest in this resort, I checked at least 40 different projects and properties in hurghada, shal hasheesh and marsa alam, overall I believe marsa alam beach resor is the best. Price, quality, returns, projections, there's no other places that are this good today in egypt.
You can buy a villa in hurghada for 300K sterling but you probably won't get anywhere close the marsa alam returns.
In marsa alam, the kuwaitis are going to invest a lot of money in port ghalib, that's the key for me to the really high capital growth, and in terms of resale, this is going to be juicy. Just a question of timing I suppose.

Like I said, I am not an agent or a developer, I just buy properties, rent them and sell them if the market is good. I have done that for 6 years now. I was working for fruit and veg in south africa , in the uk, it's like waitrose. See Lou, I'm not from the rich class at all but I made the choice to invest instead of being an employee, I started with less than 20K sterling.
Anthony I am sure is the same, you have to rely on professionals, not on the internet, nobody will give you a good advice, just chaos and confusion between stuff they heard and stuff they misunderstood, it's easy to be confused.
Get yourself a good personal banker, a trustworthy lawyer not a shark after your cash, do a lot of homework and then call the agents, it is as simple as that.

 

[anthonyday]

Hi Lou,

I wasn't having a go at people being a first time buyer either, just saying that I agree with Pierre, that the best way to determine investment opportunities is to research them using people you trust such as your agent,lawyer, financial advisor etc rather than rely on speculation on these types of forums. As I've previously mentioned I only use these types of forums as a way to meet investors in projects I am involved in and monitor negative comments as these can adversely affect my investments. Not having a go at anyone for being a first time buyer, as rightly pointed out by Pierre, we were all in that boat at some stage. Just trying to give some advice, no need to be offended.

Tony

 

[Zeiad Yehia]

Dear All,

I am writing a quick clarification here, which has nothing to do with Marsa Alam Beach Resort DD, but kindl read carefully.

I'm simply commenting on notes here; that which said that lawyers are sharks, and that which said that a professional translator is needed:

1- When I had many clients asking me to check and verify the due diligence, we have agreed on a certain price, and when I was done with it, and because I felt that these people have already lost hopes, and possibly money, I did not ask ANY OF THEM to pay my verification fees. I believe that the definition of "shark" does not encompass people who have done work for free, especially when it is not the only thing I've done for free. I think that many people who are reading this can recall services whom I've done for them without charging them a single penny.

Lawyers, just like any other group of people, are different, as you cannot generalize and say that an entire certain group of people is this or that. Generalization is always wrong, and you can say I am srict, I delay for some days because I have a lot of things to do, I am whatever, but the "shark" description most definitely does not apply on me.

I am proud, so proud in fact, of never giving any one misleading information, and of being one of those who adopt "justice" in their work. Without getting into details, I have refused many profitable work because I intend never to go on he wrong side, and this identifies me as a person, not as a lawyer, and it is more concerned with who I am and how I was raised up, and not with my study / job.


2- Talking about translation. For those who are not aware of my background, kindly be informed that I have 'officially' translated Stephen Hawking's masterpiece "A Brief History of Time" to Arabic during my work for Bibliotheca Alexandrina www.bibalex.org and that my translation was highly praised. I was supposed to see Mr. Hawking himself in person during his visit to the library, which unfortunately was cancelled according to the fact that he needed special equipment in the conference center which was not ready. Kindly check with the libraries' sector of Bibliotheca Alexandrina for more information about my translation.


3- Now this is the most important point:

I have nothing agaist ANYONE, and I never mislead someone for the sake of someone else. Consequently when I have a client, my sole target is to protect their investment, do it properly, in order to enhance my name and reputation which are my every thing. When the transaction is safe I approve it directly, and when something is missing I do not disapprove it without mentioning reason, but I make sure to mention the missing parts.

Some projects have a very bad situation, while others have a minor defect that can be rectified easily, and I always mention what is needed for the transaction for being a valid and safe one. I would be the one to blame if things went wrong, an despite the fact that no one ever can predict the future, but at least the maximum protective measurements shall be taken, or otherwise I would be the one blaming myself for not taking it in the right time.


In addition, I never give a personal opinion. My legal opinions are based on the official and governmental documents that I revise. Subsequently when I sleep in the night, I do not feel scared for people whom I misled or gave them unsure information, because my bases are official documents and law, and I never go out of my line for any reason, especially money, or I would've been very rich already!


Just thought these points needed to be cleared, especially after reading some points in this thread that needed to be clarified.

The last note that you may know is that Marsa Alam Beach Resort have agreed already to most of my notes "almost all" that I wrote to them and to my clients, but I now started to get used to hear different stuff after verifying the DD of a certain project.

I am proud of myself, and with the way I do my job, regardless of this or that project, since my concern is my client and not the real estate war between different agencies / developers. I am totally out of this stuff, and will never be a part of it.

All the best,

Zeiad Yehia
Solicitor

 

[Zeiad Yehia]

Important Update:

Dear All,

Kindly be informed that I have been contacted by IPI's global netword director Mr. Mark James Stephen. The correspondance was very fruitful. The gentleman has emphasized that the conract is now bilingual after including Arabic, and has sent attached a sample that is written in a really good way. Also the title of deed evolution has been amended to be in compliance to the Egyptian laws.

I have expressed my respect to IPI as an esteemed developer, and confirmed that my sole issue was protecting my clients' investments. However, now that IPI has taken the time and effort to change the title of deed evolution method, and mention this clearly in the contract, in addition to accepting to add Arabic being the language solely recognized by Egyptian courts, I can only express my respect and appreciation, as this shows clearly that IPI is a serious developer.

I think this puts an end to the argument of Marsa Alam Beach Resort's due diligence.

There are few minor issues that I have mentioned to Mr. Stephen, and despite being of some importance but they're easy to be done. Every thing is easy to be done in fact, as long as people have true intention, and it is clear that the developer has a true intention to make his clients comfortable feeling they're in safe hands.

All the best,

Zeiad Yehia
Solicitor

 

[queenie40something]

Thats great stuff Zeiad thanks for updating investors x