Is the Dubai property market falling apart or finding a level?

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Brendan R

New Member
Where did I say picking a bottom. I said when market goes up it comes down, and when market goes down it comes up too. It doesn't has to go down as much as previous bottom or come up as previous peak, however, that doesn't change the fact that markets are cyclical.
cyclicality is not immediate, especially in real estate. A Down is not immediately follow by a Up and vice versa.

That's where you fail. It will take ten years before a new cycle emerges.

It takes time to purge excesses. Even if we don't go lower, it doesn't mean we're going higher. It's called muddle through and we're going to experience for the next 10 years.

Check Japan real estate prices and the Nikkei.
 
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PropGuy

New Member
cyclicality is not immediate, especially in real estate. A Down is not immediately follow by a Up and vice versa.

That's where you fail. It will take ten years before a new cycle emerges.

It takes time to purge excesses. Even if we don't go lower, it doesn't mean we're going higher. It's called muddle through and we're going to experience for the next 10 years.

Check Japan real estate prices and the Nikkei.
Now you are switching to just real estate, and I'm responding to your comment:"predicting the end of these doomed business models purely relying on debt and consumption."

(1) Economies are recovering and they are starting another super-cycle.
(2) Real estate might recover early too this time and follow a V or W recovery pattern due to unusual steps govts have taken that were not taken in previously. This is what the market data is indicating.
(3) Japan and Nikkei is not the best comparison. Japan's real estate boom was one of the most extreme boom in which prices reached to $93,000 psf and that was 1990s. In today's $ value it must be around $150,000 psf.

Only time will tell who read the market directions correctly.
 
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Brendan R

New Member
Now you are switching to just real estate, and I'm responding to your comment:"predicting the end of these doomed business models purely relying on debt and consumption."

(1) Economies are recovering and they are starting another super-cycle.
(2) Real estate might recover early too this time and follow a V or W recovery pattern due to unusual steps govts have taken that were not taken in previously. This is what the market data is indicating.
(3) Japan and Nikkei is not the best comparison. Japan's real estate boom was one of the most extreme boom in which prices reached to $93,000 psf and that was 1990s. In today's $ value it must be around $150,000 psf.

Only time will tell who read the market directions correctly.
you forgot point 4)
Jesus C is coming, everybody is a winner, hip hip hurrah
 
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PropGuy

New Member
you forgot point 4)
Jesus C is coming, everybody is a winner, hip hip hurrah
LOL, I'm glad I didn't follow your advice in forex. You were doomy and gloomy on sterling too but now it is 1.5. :p
 
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Brendan R

New Member
LOL, I'm glad I didn't follow your advice in forex. You were doomy and gloomy on sterling too but now it is 1.5. :p
still short from 1.98, that's still close to 25% return, very happy with that :D
 
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PropGuy

New Member
still short from 1.98, that's still close to 25% return, very happy with that :D
Many people were. But some people went long at 1.38, and you were saying Sterling will go down more. I hope nobody went short at those levels (1.38 and 1.43).

Btw, at the moment that is 22% return. Your return would have been 30% if you closed your shorts at 1.38. Would have additional 11% more if you went long at 1.38. Total would have been 41%.
 
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financier888

New Member
super cycle?

Now you are switching to just real estate, and I'm responding to your comment:"predicting the end of these doomed business models purely relying on debt and consumption."

(1) Economies are recovering and they are starting another super-cycle.
(2) Real estate might recover early too this time and follow a V or W recovery pattern due to unusual steps govts have taken that were not taken in previously. This is what the market data is indicating.
(3) Japan and Nikkei is not the best comparison. Japan's real estate boom was one of the most extreme boom in which prices reached to $93,000 psf and that was 1990s. In today's $ value it must be around $150,000 psf.

Only time will tell who read the market directions correctly.
'Another 'Super-Cycle' ??? perhaps if you own pawn shops... as I saw the latest report on CNN on the one in France that is doing a booming business. Funny, I haven't come across any economists predicting this 'super-cycle' ? This will take yearsssssssssssssss I reckon we won't be off the treadmill for quite awhile.. First we were hearing - 4Q '09 - then it was modified to 2010 and now I am hearing 2011... but not word about this 'super-cycle'....???
 
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PropGuy

New Member
'Another 'Super-Cycle' ??? perhaps if you own pawn shops... as I saw the latest report on CNN on the one in France that is doing a booming business. Funny, I haven't come across any economists predicting this 'super-cycle' ? This will take yearsssssssssssssss I reckon we won't be off the treadmill for quite awhile.. First we were hearing - 4Q '09 - then it was modified to 2010 and now I am hearing 2011... but not word about this 'super-cycle'....???
2001-2008 was a super-cycle. All the indicators are showing a new super-cycle; in my estimation it will peak in 6/9 years.

When did CNN report these things on time? Did they report the previous booms and busts early on? If you need media report here are two, but my estimation is different:
ISRI CONVENTION: Copper 'supercycle' could return by '10

Emerging markets second wind blows in the face of short-term thinking - Telegraph
 
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Brendan R

New Member
2001-2008 was a super-cycle. All the indicators are showing a new super-cycle; in my estimation it will peak in 6/9 years.

When did CNN report these things on time? Did they report the previous booms and busts early on? If you need media report here are two, but my estimation is different:
ISRI CONVENTION: Copper 'supercycle' could return by '10

Emerging markets second wind blows in the face of short-term thinking - Telegraph
copper is a sell at 2.11
target 1.70
 
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financier888

New Member
2001-2008 was a super-cycle. All the indicators are showing a new super-cycle; in my estimation it will peak in 6/9 years.

When did CNN report these things on time? Did they report the previous booms and busts early on? If you need media report here are two, but my estimation is different:
ISRI CONVENTION: Copper 'supercycle' could return by '10

Emerging markets second wind blows in the face of short-term thinking - Telegraph
thanks for the info - 6-9 years seems reasonable - but in 2-3? I wouldn't think so based on past cycles and the global impact of this one. I do forsee Dubai turing the corner on this, but it will take place as the entire global economy rebounds
 
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PropGuy

New Member
thanks for the info - 6-9 years seems reasonable - but in 2-3? I wouldn't think so based on past cycles and the global impact of this one. I do forsee Dubai turing the corner on this, but it will take place as the entire global economy rebounds
In 2-3 years we'll see a rebound but not the peak imo. Some people who are optimistic they believe prices will start to rise in winter this year. In palm jumeriah prices have started to rise. In march sig villas were selling for 7.2m, now it is difficult to find one for 8.6m. DG is showing good demand too for rentals. It is still far away from 2008 peak prices but some places are showing 5% appreciations already from bottom prices in feb/mar. In 1-2yrs there are good chances that prices will appreciate 15%-20% (slower in 2009 and higher in 2010). But we'll know after summer if it is short-term trend before people leave Dubai or these people are moving into Dubai.

With feds bailout and UAE tied to US$, there are expectations of double digit inflation: Brace For Hyper-Inflation, 3
 
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paul66

New Member
Better news worldwide...

UK House prices increased by over 1% last month according to Nationwide, this is now the second time in 3 months there has been an increase.

USA - housing market has bottomed out and the graph is turning back up.

If developed countries start recovering, so will the emerging markets such as UAE.
 
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paul66

New Member
New HSBC Report: UAE property market starts its comeback

01/JUN/2009
New HSBC Report: UAE property market starts its comeback

Property prices in Dubai are bottoming out with initial signs of confidence returning to the market, new research said yesterday.

"Distressed stock is gradually clearing, with further signs of consolidation as volumes continue to pick up. Also, more recently, mortgage providers have moved to ease their requirements, raising loan-to-value (LTV) and relaxing credit norms, which we view as a further sign of some normalcy returning to the market," HSBC said in its "Property Ladder" report.

According to the bank, the May transaction survey suggests that the market is starting to bottom out, with agreed prices up four per cent and five per cent month-on-month (m-o-m) in April and May, respectively.

"On the ground market testing confirms that the distressed stock is gradually clearing due to renewed interest as well as some sellers repricing, pulling their properties off the market, or putting them up for lease. Sentiment seems to be improving and sellers are now less willing to negotiate. Anecdotal evidence also suggests that foreign investors seem to be back in the market and there are bulk buyers of property for investment purposes."

Besides, most of this year's transactions have been conducted in cash, but mortgage purchases are starting to pick up following the recent change in policy by lenders. Apparently, Standard Chartered and RAKBank are leading the way, the report said.

While agreed prices are now down 23 per cent from the September 2008 peak, "we believe that it is important to compare agreed prices to advertised prices in order to fully understand the extent of the downturn". According to the report, prices are down 65 per cent from the peak asking prices to the agreed prices.

David Lepper, Head of UAE Equity Research, HSBC Global Research, said: "Market data from April and May show a range of positive indicators: agreed property sale prices are rising, volumes are holding up well, and banks have loosened their lending criteria. However, we will not be able to discern a sustainable trend until later in 2009, and while we note these positive developments, the market as a whole is coming off a very low base, given the sharp declines since the market peak. Credit growth remains subdued, and the UAE economy still has challenges to deal with."

While apartment prices (which account for 85 per cent of transactions) have started to turn around, up nine per cent in May 2009, villa prices continue to come under pressure, down 11 per cent m-o-m. Villa agreed prices have now fallen 49 per cent since the September 2008 peak, compared to only 16 per cent for apartments.

The steeper decline in villa pricing is partly due to a sharper upturn last year, but is also a result of affordability, in light of lower mortgage LTV. "Transaction prices could be understated as buyers could potentially understate the value of their property in order to reduce registration fees. That said, however, the discrepancy is unlikely to be large, since properties with suspiciously low values are typically investigated by the regulator. This means that actual prices should be somewhere in between asking and agreed, which are now starting to converge," HSBC said.

However, there are still potential risks. With the summer approaching, volumes are likely to soften leading to short-term price volatility. The school year coming to an end in June, and more supply coming on the market could lead to renewed weakness.

According to the report, construction costs are likely to come down further although the building materials price index points to a 20 to 30 per cent price drop from the July 2008. "We believe that construction costs are likely to continue to trend downwards," HSBC said.

YIELD COMPRESSION

Yield compression is now apparent as rentals continue to slide (down 41 per cent year-to-date),while prices start to stabilise. Rental yields are down from seven per cent in March to 5.9 per cent in May. However, yields on asking prices are higher, upwards of 10 per cent in May.

Rental yields initially expanded, as prices were first to get hit by tightening credit conditions. Rentals, on the other hand, were only impacted after the first lay-offs. "Considering that rentals are a pure reflection of demand/supply dynamics, we believe they are likely to see further weakness as more stock comes on to the market."

According to HSBC, the May survey of advertised listings shows initial signs of stabilisation as transaction prices lead advertised aspirations. While down 18 per cent m-o-m in March, advertised prices in Dubai were up three per cent in April and down one per cent in May. The advertised data highlights no m-o-m change in apartment prices in May, but a three per cent m-o-m decline in villa prices.

Dubai advertised listings saw a gradual decline over the past two months despite more stock being delivered, falling 11 per cent from 5,782 in March to 5,173 in May.

"We believe this adds further credence to our analysis and shows that stock is clearing and/or listings are being pulled off the market. In any case, this is supportive of pricing. Also the shift in mix towards lease listings persisted in May 2009, increasing to 15 per cent, the highest level since we started our survey in September 2008."

ABU DHABI

Advertised prices in the capital are also showing signs of stabilisation, up two per cent and seven per cent, in April and May, respectively. Villa prices underperformed apartments, declining by four per cent m-o-m in May, while apartment prices rose eight per cent m-o-m. The bank believes this has to do more with lower affordability due to tightening liquidity than preference, said HSBC.

QUALITY UNITS IN FOCUS

In Abu Dhabi and Dubai, buyers and tenants are showing renewed willingness to pay for better units and better locations, a report by Landmark Advisory said yesterday. "Even if decline patterns differ between Dubai and Abu Dhabi, falling prices are creating opportunities that boost demand in both markets. In April, we observed strong leasing and higher sales volumes," said Jesse Downs, Director of Research & Advisory Services in the Q2-2009 real estate report on Abu Dhabi and Dubai.

"Since mortgage activity is low, cash buys constitute a significant portion of transactions. Therefore, to accurately assess price trends, it's critical to have access to data sets containing both transaction types. In Dubai, Emaar is faring best in terms of demand and pricing," she added. Downs said with a flight to quality clearly under way, end-user preferences are differentiating prices in favour of developers such as Emaar and preferred locations such as Dubai Marina. In the Q1 of 2009, Emaar master developments accounted for approximately two-thirds of sales and 57 per cent of new leases. "More specifically, units developed directly by Emaar represented over half of sales and 39 per cent of new rentals."

Dubai Marina was the most popular area among renters, capturing 30 per cent of all new annual leasing contracts. Emirates Living came in second, at 16 per cent.

As for Abu Dhabi, "the issue of first-phase master development integration will leave certain Abu Dhabi developers more vulnerable in the short to medium term," said Downs. Landmark Advisory's analysis shows a positive correlation between price performance and proximity to central Abu Dhabi.

source: TigerZilla.com : New HSBC Report: UAE property market starts its comeback
 
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paul66

New Member
A 40% drop this year is as expected, compared to the 50-60% rise we had in 2008.
 
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Brendan R

New Member
A 40% drop this year is as expected, compared to the 50-60% rise we had in 2008.
that's quite volatile... who wants to invest in flying bricks and mortars (actually, sand),any sucker around? :D
 
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paul66

New Member
Brendan R... Dubai needed this correction to have a long-term stable market.

The bottom of the Dubai (and UAE) market has already been reached - see HSBC report and many signs of Green Shoots in the UAE Economy. So I would say NOW is a great time to purchase as long as you have the cash due to loans still difficult to get anywhere in the world. Obviously, location is important - Marina, Greens, Business Bay, etc. are all top places to buy.

The long-term prospects for Dubai and the UAE are still excellent - see Bloomberg, HSBC, CNBC and Reuters reports.

I rest my case.
 
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cascades

New Member
Actually most are only talking about prices up or down. The real problem with property is the maintanance. Though most of the todays work is of poor quality, one notices that even in old dubai buildings the maintanance team is stealing. They replace good quality hinges, sensors, nuts, bolts etc with poor quality alternatives as they can easily sell off the original product which they collect in the form of garbage.They actually get paid to do this and large part of the management (the guys who know nothing besides talking) is partner in crime.This problem has reached alarming levels.
 
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ssazain12

New Member
still the bottom not reached

UAE property market bottoming out -HSBC

UAE property prices have another 15-20 percent to fall before bottoming out at the end of this year and are moving toward stability, Deutsche Bank said in a report released on Thursday.

Deutsche’s study follows other reports saying the real estate market has already bottomed out.

"While we noticed some signs of stabilisation recently, we remain cautious given the limited number of transactions and the continuing declining trend in rents," Deutsche Bank said.

"We identify risks of further weakness driven by the exodus of expatriates and new supply flowing into the market.”

The global financial crisis has taken its toll on the UAE's once-booming property sector. In Dubai - the biggest sufferer - property prices in some parts of the city have fallen more than 50 percent since their peaks in 2008.

Deutsche said the slump had wiped off an estimated 50 percent off Dubai prices since Aug 2008. Abu Dhabi prices have fallen 30 percent.

One of the biggest challenges facing regional developers in coming months will be access to financing and rising defaults by homeowners, Deutsche said in its report.

"Developers under coverage would have to collect about 38 billion dirhams ($10.3 billion) from customers' installments in the next couple of years, which we see as challenging."

Tamweel and Amlak, Islamic mortgage lenders which account for about 60 percent of the UAE's outstanding mortgage loans, need a cash injection of 18.7 billion dirhams to meet their commitments, an unsourced report in newspaper Emirates Business said this week.

Tamweel rejected the report.

HSBC said that prices in Abu Dhabi and Dubai rose 4 percent in April and 5 percent in May. In the apartment segment, which accounts for 85 percent of all transactions, prices rose 9 percent in May.

Standard Chartered said this week "the first signs of stabilisation in Dubai's real estate sector have appeared, taking observers by surprise since further declines were expected. Some caution is warranted as there are still question marks surrounding population flows in the coming months."
 
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