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Fozziebear
New Member
Hi I was just wondering if there are any bloggers who have purchased properties at Geshaview in Dryanovo, and if so are they having any problems getting their deeds etc.
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KayJay
Member
Fozzie, I assume that you are aware of the Geshaview Owners Group on Facebook? You'll Have To Join Facebook to See This!
It seems as though this project has experienced the kind of problems which beset many such schemes which were commenced in the "Bulgarian Property Gold Rush" days before cold reality set in. It seems as though many owners bought property with a view to making a tidy profit but of course the value of their investment has dropped dramatically and the rentals they envisaged/were led to expect were illusory even then.
Judging by some of the Facebook comments, you're not alone in your concerns (and €3000 a year for maintenance of a 2-bed house is swingeing to put it politely!
).
If you want some sensible advice here then you'll need to give some more information - what is in your contract, what is the current legal status of the complex in terms of which Acts have been issued, has anyone actually refused to hand over the final paperwork (assuming that the relevant Act has been granted)?
It looks as though the developers are still trying to run the complex and complete the promised works but at the very least the value of the investment is much lower than before and the running costs appear to be huge - unless someone is creaming off a huge profit.
It seems as though this project has experienced the kind of problems which beset many such schemes which were commenced in the "Bulgarian Property Gold Rush" days before cold reality set in. It seems as though many owners bought property with a view to making a tidy profit but of course the value of their investment has dropped dramatically and the rentals they envisaged/were led to expect were illusory even then.
Judging by some of the Facebook comments, you're not alone in your concerns (and €3000 a year for maintenance of a 2-bed house is swingeing to put it politely!
).If you want some sensible advice here then you'll need to give some more information - what is in your contract, what is the current legal status of the complex in terms of which Acts have been issued, has anyone actually refused to hand over the final paperwork (assuming that the relevant Act has been granted)?
It looks as though the developers are still trying to run the complex and complete the promised works but at the very least the value of the investment is much lower than before and the running costs appear to be huge - unless someone is creaming off a huge profit.
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Fozziebear
New Member
Hi Kay Jay,
I think there are so many problems with Geshaview its unreal. Some people have got their title deeds, some haven't we have asked so many times, but nothing apears. My only fear is that we gave the developers POA because we couldn't always get over to Bulgaria. Now I want to cancel it as soon as possible, but don't know how to do it.
We bought this property as our prnsion fund, now it looks as though we have a propert which we can't get the deeds for.
I think there are so many problems with Geshaview its unreal. Some people have got their title deeds, some haven't we have asked so many times, but nothing apears. My only fear is that we gave the developers POA because we couldn't always get over to Bulgaria. Now I want to cancel it as soon as possible, but don't know how to do it.
We bought this property as our prnsion fund, now it looks as though we have a propert which we can't get the deeds for.
K
KayJay
Member
Fozzie
This all seems rather bizarre. You "think" there are problems but don't seem too sure - and you ask for documents and seemingly don't do anything when there is no adequate response.
There's no way anyone here can help you without more information so here are a few questions:
1 - what was in the POA you signed? Did it have an expiry date/period of validity, and was it a "catch-all" or did it specify what powers your appointee was given? Please tell me you have a copy of the POA!
2 - is the complex complete? Does the initial contract specify what "complete" means? Has the complex been granted Act 14/15/16? Please tell me you have a copy of the initial contract!
3 - is it true that (some?) people are paying €3000 for maintenance of a 2-bed terrace house? And that they are paying this despite not having a contract? Have any AGMs taken place? Has any maintenance taken place and has anyone seen the accounts?
4 - do you have records of your attempts to obtain "deeds" and the company's response to those attempts? The "deeds" are presumably the Notary Act which transfers ownership to you in accordance with the initial contract and would, theoretically at least, have been due to be signed by you/your assigned representative once the relevant conditions (Act X) had been issued.
The POA can be cancelled quite easily, basically by signing a declaration, "publishing" it and informing the person(s) who held the POA.
In all honesty, you really do have to engage a Bulgarian lawyer to handle this case for you and ideally to come over to meet with them and sign any necessary paperwork; it'll probably be cheaper to come than to try to get documents notarised/apostilled etc anyway.
This all seems rather bizarre. You "think" there are problems but don't seem too sure - and you ask for documents and seemingly don't do anything when there is no adequate response.
There's no way anyone here can help you without more information so here are a few questions:
1 - what was in the POA you signed? Did it have an expiry date/period of validity, and was it a "catch-all" or did it specify what powers your appointee was given? Please tell me you have a copy of the POA!
2 - is the complex complete? Does the initial contract specify what "complete" means? Has the complex been granted Act 14/15/16? Please tell me you have a copy of the initial contract!
3 - is it true that (some?) people are paying €3000 for maintenance of a 2-bed terrace house? And that they are paying this despite not having a contract? Have any AGMs taken place? Has any maintenance taken place and has anyone seen the accounts?
4 - do you have records of your attempts to obtain "deeds" and the company's response to those attempts? The "deeds" are presumably the Notary Act which transfers ownership to you in accordance with the initial contract and would, theoretically at least, have been due to be signed by you/your assigned representative once the relevant conditions (Act X) had been issued.
The POA can be cancelled quite easily, basically by signing a declaration, "publishing" it and informing the person(s) who held the POA.
In all honesty, you really do have to engage a Bulgarian lawyer to handle this case for you and ideally to come over to meet with them and sign any necessary paperwork; it'll probably be cheaper to come than to try to get documents notarised/apostilled etc anyway.
W
Whitwood
New Member
GeshaView Owners Group
There is a google group that a growing group of UK owners are using that have a property at Geshaview. It's a useful forum to connect and share with other owners. People discuss when they are next visiting, share things to do in the area and importantly discuss any concerns they have with the Geshaview development, including issues with maintenance fees etc. You will need to provide some details to enable access but this is the link to the Geshaview forum. Unfortunatly I do not have the required privileges to post the URL but this can be found on Facebook.
There is a google group that a growing group of UK owners are using that have a property at Geshaview. It's a useful forum to connect and share with other owners. People discuss when they are next visiting, share things to do in the area and importantly discuss any concerns they have with the Geshaview development, including issues with maintenance fees etc. You will need to provide some details to enable access but this is the link to the Geshaview forum. Unfortunatly I do not have the required privileges to post the URL but this can be found on Facebook.
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Fozziebear
New Member
This all seems rather bizarre. You "think" there are problems but don't seem too sure - and you ask for documents and seemingly don't do anything when there is no adequate response.
There's no way anyone here can help you without more information so here are a few questions:
1 - what was in the POA you signed? Did it have an expiry date/period of validity, and was it a "catch-all" or did it specify what powers your appointee was given? Please tell me you have a copy of the POA!
There was no expiry dates on the POA, and yes we have a copy. Don’t know what you mean by catch all?
2 - is the complex complete? Does the initial contract specify what "complete" means? Has the complex been granted Act 14/15/16? Please tell me you have a copy of the initial contract!
No the complex is not complete. No the contract does not specify what complete means, and I have been asking if the Act14/15/16 have been completed, and have been told “yes” but they have still not sent copies. We have copies of the preliminary contracts but that is all.
3 - is it true that (some?) people are paying €3000 for maintenance of a 2-bed terrace house? And that they are paying this despite not having a contract? Have any AGMs taken place? Has any maintenance taken place and has anyone seen the accounts?
The simple answer to the above is NO CONTRACTS and yes €3000 is the correct maintenance figure
4 - do you have records of your attempts to obtain "deeds" and the company's response to those attempts? The "deeds" are presumably the Notary Act which transfers ownership to you in accordance with the initial contract and would, theoretically at least, have been due to be signed by you/your assigned representative once the relevant conditions (Act X) had been issued.
Yes I have copies of the emails I have sent, but as they don’t reply, I have no response from them. They have now started to issue solicitors letters about the non payment of maintance.
The POA can be cancelled quite easily, basically by signing a declaration, "publishing" it and informing the person(s) who held the POA.
In all honesty, you really do have to engage a Bulgarian lawyer to handle this case for you and ideally to come over to meet with them and sign any necessary paperwork; it'll probably be cheaper to come than to try to get documents notarised/apostilled etc anyway.
Many thanks for your assistance, I personally think that’s the only way to go forward.
There's no way anyone here can help you without more information so here are a few questions:
1 - what was in the POA you signed? Did it have an expiry date/period of validity, and was it a "catch-all" or did it specify what powers your appointee was given? Please tell me you have a copy of the POA!
There was no expiry dates on the POA, and yes we have a copy. Don’t know what you mean by catch all?
2 - is the complex complete? Does the initial contract specify what "complete" means? Has the complex been granted Act 14/15/16? Please tell me you have a copy of the initial contract!
No the complex is not complete. No the contract does not specify what complete means, and I have been asking if the Act14/15/16 have been completed, and have been told “yes” but they have still not sent copies. We have copies of the preliminary contracts but that is all.
3 - is it true that (some?) people are paying €3000 for maintenance of a 2-bed terrace house? And that they are paying this despite not having a contract? Have any AGMs taken place? Has any maintenance taken place and has anyone seen the accounts?
The simple answer to the above is NO CONTRACTS and yes €3000 is the correct maintenance figure
4 - do you have records of your attempts to obtain "deeds" and the company's response to those attempts? The "deeds" are presumably the Notary Act which transfers ownership to you in accordance with the initial contract and would, theoretically at least, have been due to be signed by you/your assigned representative once the relevant conditions (Act X) had been issued.
Yes I have copies of the emails I have sent, but as they don’t reply, I have no response from them. They have now started to issue solicitors letters about the non payment of maintance.
The POA can be cancelled quite easily, basically by signing a declaration, "publishing" it and informing the person(s) who held the POA.
In all honesty, you really do have to engage a Bulgarian lawyer to handle this case for you and ideally to come over to meet with them and sign any necessary paperwork; it'll probably be cheaper to come than to try to get documents notarised/apostilled etc anyway.
Many thanks for your assistance, I personally think that’s the only way to go forward.
K
KayJay
Member
Fozzie
A catch-all is a POA which allows the holder to do anything at all in regards to the property, as opposed to one which specifies exactly what is permitted; in a "normal" POA obviously anything which isn't included is automatically excluded. The problem with a catch-all is that the holder may be able to do ANYTHING at all, including opening/closing/using bank accounts, signing contracts on your behalf or even selling your property - that's not to say that they will but they may be able to.
It's a VERY good idea for you to re-read the POA you signed very carefully and to decide if you should arrange to have it rescinded as soon as possible.
Likewise you need to re-read the preliminary contract (and check that the Bulgarian version, which is usually part of it, is identical in content to the English version - the Bulgarian one will take precedence). Most preliminary contracts I have seen include clauses on the size and timing of staged payments, and exactly when they are due. This is usually after the various Acts have been issued and it's normal for a copy of the Act to accompany each payment request. If you have paid based on an assurance that a certain Act has been issued and this proves not to be the case then the developer is in breach of the contract.
Since I have no idea what is in the preliminary contract, I really can't comment on what you are or aren't committed to but it's extremely unusual for anyone to pay maintenance on a property which they don't even know if they own, for "services" which aren't set out in a separate contract and on a complex which hasn't held an AGM to appoint/ratify a maintenance company. The comment you made about not permitting access to renters seems to indicate either an attempt to brow-beat "owners" or evidence that the contractual situation is more complicated than you think.
In a lot of ways you're actually quite lucky: at least the complex exists and the developer hasn't done a bunk with your cash or, as far as we know, sold it to his wife for 10 leva. Moreover, they do still seem to be reasonably committed to the project.
There's one other factor you might care to consider and that's the possible effect of a collective action by owners. On the one hand, there's safety (and power) in numbers and the developer might well become more reasonable when faced by a large and united group; on the other hand, a class-action might cause him to cave in financially and to declare bankruptcy, leaving everyone with years of expensive legal action with nothing to show for it but some well-fed lawyers. It's possible that the correct amount of individual pressure, applied in the right way, could lead to a result which you personally might find acceptable; I guess it depends on how you feel and whether you believe in the financial survival of the individual or the species...
A catch-all is a POA which allows the holder to do anything at all in regards to the property, as opposed to one which specifies exactly what is permitted; in a "normal" POA obviously anything which isn't included is automatically excluded. The problem with a catch-all is that the holder may be able to do ANYTHING at all, including opening/closing/using bank accounts, signing contracts on your behalf or even selling your property - that's not to say that they will but they may be able to.
It's a VERY good idea for you to re-read the POA you signed very carefully and to decide if you should arrange to have it rescinded as soon as possible.
Likewise you need to re-read the preliminary contract (and check that the Bulgarian version, which is usually part of it, is identical in content to the English version - the Bulgarian one will take precedence). Most preliminary contracts I have seen include clauses on the size and timing of staged payments, and exactly when they are due. This is usually after the various Acts have been issued and it's normal for a copy of the Act to accompany each payment request. If you have paid based on an assurance that a certain Act has been issued and this proves not to be the case then the developer is in breach of the contract.
Since I have no idea what is in the preliminary contract, I really can't comment on what you are or aren't committed to but it's extremely unusual for anyone to pay maintenance on a property which they don't even know if they own, for "services" which aren't set out in a separate contract and on a complex which hasn't held an AGM to appoint/ratify a maintenance company. The comment you made about not permitting access to renters seems to indicate either an attempt to brow-beat "owners" or evidence that the contractual situation is more complicated than you think.
In a lot of ways you're actually quite lucky: at least the complex exists and the developer hasn't done a bunk with your cash or, as far as we know, sold it to his wife for 10 leva. Moreover, they do still seem to be reasonably committed to the project.
There's one other factor you might care to consider and that's the possible effect of a collective action by owners. On the one hand, there's safety (and power) in numbers and the developer might well become more reasonable when faced by a large and united group; on the other hand, a class-action might cause him to cave in financially and to declare bankruptcy, leaving everyone with years of expensive legal action with nothing to show for it but some well-fed lawyers. It's possible that the correct amount of individual pressure, applied in the right way, could lead to a result which you personally might find acceptable; I guess it depends on how you feel and whether you believe in the financial survival of the individual or the species...
F
Fozziebear
New Member
I gave have just the googled the group and I am amazed at how many owners are in the same position. We thought we were the only ones. The first thng we need to do is cancel the POA.
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KayJay
Member
If you're saying what I think you're saying, then absolutely correct - you DO need to cancel the POA.
However, do be wary even so - some POAs include a clause permitting the holder of the POA to give POA to third parties, which devolves the same powers to them. Cancelling "your" POA isn't necessarily sufficient to cancel these subsequent ones. It may also be that contracts have been signed already under the term of the POA(s) - these will NOT be invalidated by the cancellation as the POA was perfectly valid at the time in question. It's also not unheard-of for contracts to be back-dated (with the assistance of a "friendly" notary). In any of these circumstances, long and costly legal action can follow.
Anyway, get it cancelled asap but make sure it's done properly - I suspect the developers won't be too chuffed and will exploit any loop-holes you leave.
However, do be wary even so - some POAs include a clause permitting the holder of the POA to give POA to third parties, which devolves the same powers to them. Cancelling "your" POA isn't necessarily sufficient to cancel these subsequent ones. It may also be that contracts have been signed already under the term of the POA(s) - these will NOT be invalidated by the cancellation as the POA was perfectly valid at the time in question. It's also not unheard-of for contracts to be back-dated (with the assistance of a "friendly" notary). In any of these circumstances, long and costly legal action can follow.
Anyway, get it cancelled asap but make sure it's done properly - I suspect the developers won't be too chuffed and will exploit any loop-holes you leave.
W
Whitwood
New Member
Small but important points
There are a number of clauses under the recent laws that only apply to closed or gated communities:
"The management of the common areas of buildings in condominium ownership regime in a residential complex of a closed type, is to be regulated with a written contract with notarisation of the signatures, between the investor (developer) and the owners of separate units".
One intererpretation of this clause is that the developer does not need to be ratified at AGM as the maintenance company for gated communities like GeshaView. More information can be found at "Quest Bulgaria" but this seems to be a complex legal area that is open to interpretation. Irrespective of whether the law might favour the developer this does not remove their obligations to negotiate a contract or to provide open accounts etc.
Regarding POA. This is an entirely valid mechanism to allow a proxy to perform all the necessary actions required of the purchaser to complete the purchase of a property. I don't believe that the developer will be able to get the final deed notorized without it unless you are also present. Given that the lack of notary deeds is one of the issues I probably dont need to spell out the possible implications of cancelling the POA other than to say it might give the developer an entirely valid reason for not progressing transfer of property ownership, (ie they will not be able to).
Note also that a PoA can only be cancelled by the person who empowers it. This has to be done by retrieving the original PoA and through an official notifaction of the notary who notarised the original PoA. Copies of the POA are not sufficient.
More about this can also be found at "Quest Bulgaria".
There are a number of clauses under the recent laws that only apply to closed or gated communities:
"The management of the common areas of buildings in condominium ownership regime in a residential complex of a closed type, is to be regulated with a written contract with notarisation of the signatures, between the investor (developer) and the owners of separate units".
One intererpretation of this clause is that the developer does not need to be ratified at AGM as the maintenance company for gated communities like GeshaView. More information can be found at "Quest Bulgaria" but this seems to be a complex legal area that is open to interpretation. Irrespective of whether the law might favour the developer this does not remove their obligations to negotiate a contract or to provide open accounts etc.
Regarding POA. This is an entirely valid mechanism to allow a proxy to perform all the necessary actions required of the purchaser to complete the purchase of a property. I don't believe that the developer will be able to get the final deed notorized without it unless you are also present. Given that the lack of notary deeds is one of the issues I probably dont need to spell out the possible implications of cancelling the POA other than to say it might give the developer an entirely valid reason for not progressing transfer of property ownership, (ie they will not be able to).
Note also that a PoA can only be cancelled by the person who empowers it. This has to be done by retrieving the original PoA and through an official notifaction of the notary who notarised the original PoA. Copies of the POA are not sufficient.
More about this can also be found at "Quest Bulgaria".
K
KayJay
Member
Whitwood
Since we have no idea what is actually covered in the POAs it's not really possible to comment but it's entirely possible that the POAs signed so apparently unconcernedly by purchasers MAY allow the developer (or a person with a subsidiary POA issued by him under the terms of the original one) to sign the maintenance contract on behalf of the purchaser. Indeed, it may also be the case that it forms part of what is being described here as the "preliminary contract", since buyers didn't see fit to engage a lawyer to advise them on the implications of what they were signing.
The "Condominium Act" certainly sets out different rules on this for closed/gated communities, including the lack of choice in who maintains them. Since the developer is by definition also the maintenance company in such properties, they may not need to "negotiate" a contract - especially if the POA allows them to sign such a contract on the buyers' behalf. It may also be the case that the developer still owns a majority of the complex and/or he may have already held an AGM and made binding decisions there, based on his percentage of ownership - or even on the rather ludicrous rules on a secondary quorum.
Rescinding the POA simply places the power back in the hands of the purchaser; given the comparatively very high cost of these properties and the existing "problems" it would make little sense to save a few pennies by not taking back their rights and even getting off their backsides to attend the signing of the Notary act in person. Even with a POA still in force, the purchaser still has the right to attend and sign the papers in person anyway - and to refuse to sign them if he is unhappy with the contents.
The whole point here is that the purchasers would be very foolish, given their misgivings in relation to the developer, to allow him to sign anything on their behalf. If he really is refusing/ignoring their requests for information and copies of very important documents then why on earth would they simply leave the POA in force on the off-chance that he'll see them okay in the end? If the concerns of buyers are justified there seems no earthly reason to suppose that the developer has the slightest intention of transferring ownership any time soon and leaving the POA in force simply allows him time to do whatever he chooses, possibly to the great disadvantage of the buyers.
The question of HOW people got themselves into this mess is perhaps a subject for discussion once the situation is resolved!
Since we have no idea what is actually covered in the POAs it's not really possible to comment but it's entirely possible that the POAs signed so apparently unconcernedly by purchasers MAY allow the developer (or a person with a subsidiary POA issued by him under the terms of the original one) to sign the maintenance contract on behalf of the purchaser. Indeed, it may also be the case that it forms part of what is being described here as the "preliminary contract", since buyers didn't see fit to engage a lawyer to advise them on the implications of what they were signing.
The "Condominium Act" certainly sets out different rules on this for closed/gated communities, including the lack of choice in who maintains them. Since the developer is by definition also the maintenance company in such properties, they may not need to "negotiate" a contract - especially if the POA allows them to sign such a contract on the buyers' behalf. It may also be the case that the developer still owns a majority of the complex and/or he may have already held an AGM and made binding decisions there, based on his percentage of ownership - or even on the rather ludicrous rules on a secondary quorum.
Rescinding the POA simply places the power back in the hands of the purchaser; given the comparatively very high cost of these properties and the existing "problems" it would make little sense to save a few pennies by not taking back their rights and even getting off their backsides to attend the signing of the Notary act in person. Even with a POA still in force, the purchaser still has the right to attend and sign the papers in person anyway - and to refuse to sign them if he is unhappy with the contents.
The whole point here is that the purchasers would be very foolish, given their misgivings in relation to the developer, to allow him to sign anything on their behalf. If he really is refusing/ignoring their requests for information and copies of very important documents then why on earth would they simply leave the POA in force on the off-chance that he'll see them okay in the end? If the concerns of buyers are justified there seems no earthly reason to suppose that the developer has the slightest intention of transferring ownership any time soon and leaving the POA in force simply allows him time to do whatever he chooses, possibly to the great disadvantage of the buyers.
The question of HOW people got themselves into this mess is perhaps a subject for discussion once the situation is resolved!
T
takamine1010
New Member
Google group of owners
Here is the link to a google group which is for owners to communicate and move forward in a positive manner.
search google groups, geshaview
Here is the link to a google group which is for owners to communicate and move forward in a positive manner.
search google groups, geshaview
F
Fozziebear
New Member
Thanks everyone
T
takamine1010
New Member
So are you an owner and have you had a demand for maintenance contract?
In the google group, we are gathering together as many owners as we can to try to provide a positive outcome to this difficult situation
In the google group, we are gathering together as many owners as we can to try to provide a positive outcome to this difficult situation
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Fozziebear
New Member
Yes we are an owner and yes we have had demands for maintenance
T
takamine1010
New Member
best thing to do is join the group and join in the discussions. I have a skype meeting on Monday morning at 9.30am if you have anything in particular you would like me to raise with him such as missing title deeds or anything else you might be concerned about. We are trying desperately to provide realistic positive outcomes as we all understand the difficult job the development team have but we are not helped by the fact that they will not talk to us to answer genuine grievances. Hopefully Monday will be an honest and helpful meeting.
K
KayJay
Member
Looks like this may prove to be a positive story about Bulgarian property!
Do keep us informed as fas as you can, guys - it'll be nice to hear some good news to balance the gloom....
Do keep us informed as fas as you can, guys - it'll be nice to hear some good news to balance the gloom....
