Buying in Panama

[Diligent]

gsinker - well actually you're the one that works for the real estate company aren't you? And, if anything, seem intent on painting Panama as, to use your word, a utopia. Unlike yourself and Torchy I have no vested interest in promoting Panama - or running it down for that matter - but there's no point in avoiding uncomfortable facts.

You seem a bit perturbed that I don't volunteer somewhere else in the world as an alternative. Well, why should I - I'm not in the real estate business - and that doesn't make anything I've said about Panama less valid. As an investor however I certainly go where I can check credible references, membership of professional organisations, track record, professional licences, consumer protection agencies, government regulations etc - in addition to all the project specific detail to be verified. Also, I need to know that if contracts are not fulfilled I can fall back on a credible legal system.

Don't be offended but don't try and convince me that Panama is the only place to invest.

 

[gsinker]

OK Lets reverse the question after doing all those things that you say you do where have you invested before then?

I am not peturbed just somewhat confused, its feels your say in dont like Man Utd because... but never finish the sentance.

I do like you check list,

Membership of profesional bodies: Normally you join them by paying a subscription so that will be useful.

AIG Had a good track record and so did Lehman Brothers.

consumer protection agencies: how does that help , you mean like citizens advice??

government regulations: seems to be working quite well in the middle East, and the USA

How do you protect against bankruptancy because that will get you everytime.

All those things you mention sound good on those TV shows but it the contract that counts and funny enough you didnt mention that in your list, nor did you mention getting independent legal advice.

Do you not think that a good scam artist will not get all that covered?

If you dont want to buy in Panama fair enough but i do hope you have written the same comments on all the other countries on this forum because you have not made one observation so far that doesnt happen everywhere else in fact they seem to happen more frequently everywhere else.

I am just lost in what your trying to prove and why.

 

[Diligent]

gsinker - the more you write the less professional you seem. Where I've invested is none of your concern. I've explained my reasons for not investing in Panama quite clearly. Regardless of how you spin the "checklist" all items and more besides are necessary. Wouldn't a reputable broker agree? Where a "good scam artist" has everything covered as you say a solid, speedy and practical legal system is a necessary safety net - with, yes, independent legal advice.

In conclusion.......I have nothing to prove .....my views are my own and you don't have to agree ......... but at least they're objective.

 

[gsinker]

tell you the truth I havent seen one objective comment from you yet. But then again that my opinion.

 

[gsinker]

I wanted to post a conclusion to the last comments and give some closure to this part of the discussion.

Panama is a country that still offers investors an opportunity to obtain a decent return.

The economy is still stable
Prices are still holding
Mortgages are available
Rental market is growing at a excellent rate

The issue on crime figures needs to be put into prospective. There are areas in Panama where this is increasing but there are areas in London with the same problems. Some of these areas are 2 - 3 hours drive away from the City and the beach areas.

Legal System in Panama is not as bad as is being made out.

The system can only protect people if the contract is sound.

The same issue that happened in Panama has happened in Florida, Egypt, and Spain. I do not see these countries offering any better protection to there buyers that can be offered here in Panama.

Buyer Beware is a global issue. In Panama the legal system has been born out of many different countries including the USA. So it is more mature than you might think.

Panama is not perfect but where is??

Its does seem recently that in countries that are supposed to offer better protection for buyers, that this protection has melted away and left buyers alone, confused and disappointed.

It also appears that there is a whole industry around the globe has been created to give a somewhat miss guided illusion of comfort to buyers, only to left them down when needed.

Panama is not perfect, but there are a lot worse place to invest in at the moment. In my opinion because Panama is managing to stay afloat in the down turn market, when confidence returns to the markets Panama will come out even stronger than before.

 

[torchy]

Reply to Geoff Sinker

Good summation Geoff. I repeat my assertion that Panama is the best place in the world to invest at the moment. If anyone knows of a better place perhaps they could enlighten us, with facts not hearsay.

Torchy

 

[panamahouse]

This is the best time to invest. Sure there are a lot of canceled projects but Panama City is growing and will only grow over time. In the interior area, there are a lot of great deals on farms and residences. Areas like Boquete were always overpriced and the prices should level out in those areas.

 

[Diligent]

Following my previous posts I had intended to leave this subject alone. No sense flogging a dead horse with various people who have a vested interest in promoting (hyping) Panama rather than being objective.

But, the following caught my eye and seems quite specific about the state of the market in Panama right now - pay attention Torchy and gsinker since you requested details.

In addition, as a note of caution, it seems that licencing is required in Panama to describe yourself as a "Broker" although it turns out many involved in the business avoid this complication by describing themselves as "Real Estate Consultants" - draw your own conclusions. I had asked gsinker about this - but didn't get a straight answer which struck me as rather odd from someone representing themselves as a professional in the business.

Real estate boom starts deflating
12-17-2008 | MANUEL LUNA G.
[email protected]
Investments in the construction sector were down by 35 percent in September and 78 percent in October compared to last year
Panama Star PANAMA. The global financial crisis has started to put a premature end to the construction industry boom in Panama, and in 2009 the fall of this important industry is expected to be more pronounced. The local market has reached saturation point, and demand for new projects is falling.
As proof, in the month of September, investments in construction projects were down by 35 percent, compared to September 2007. The sale of projects in the month of October fell 78 percent compared to statistics for October 2007.
A study by the economist Osvaldo Lao for the Panamanian Association of Real Estate Agents and Promoters revealed that housing sales reached 1,766 in October 2007, while the number fell to just 438 this past October, the lowest monthly figure in the last two years. In housing complexes that cost less than $80,000 the fall was 75 percent.
For units costing more than $80,000 the fall in sales was 80 percent.
The housing sector of less than $80,000 proves to be the most marketable, with a turnover rate of less than 10 months.

The link is

Real estate boom starts deflating :: La Estrella Panamá :: laestrella.com.pa :: 2009

 

[gsinker]

Why should anyone answer your questions when you never answer ours?

For a person that has never posted or contibuted anything to this entire web site you seem to have a major problem with Panama even though you claim not to.

Panama Real estate is regulated by the goverment if youre not interested in buying in Panama why would you need to know more?

You do appear to have a hidden agenda and I am sure it will become clear at one point.

 

[Diligent]

Well, first, the only questions I recall you asking are a) Do I work for a real estate agent? Answer: No b) Where in the world is better than Panama? Answer: Why is that relevant to comments about Panama c) Where have I invested? Answer: None of your business.

Once again, I have no problem with Panama. My issue is with overselling, hype and an avoidance of the facts. Don't you have any comments on the article in L'aestrella?

Good to hear "Panama Real estate is regulated by the goverment". In what way? Are you? I note that once again you have avoided my question about licensing. Should I asumme that you're a "Consultant" rather than a Broker?

Hidden agenda? I think it's quite clear by now that I'm trying to balance your hype. Nothing hidden about that.

I don't understand your statement "never posted or contibuted anything to this entire web site". Obviously I'm posting - equally obviously you don't like my contribution. Too bad.

 

[gsinker]

What I want to know is why you are personally attacking me on a forum. It seems that your trying to force your opinions onto this forum.

What has Panama done to you that has given you such a problem?

Have you lost money in Panama?, Did you buy into a project that isnt completed yet?

I dont think that Panama has over hyped itself when you can look at Dubia and Bulgaria.

In fact it has probably under hyped itself.

The figures you quote are from a local newspaper, how can you ensure the figures are correct. Simple you cant.

Why dont you spend you time and effort on a country like Dubai that clearly was over hyped.

What comes across very clear is that you have very little understanding on the business of Real Estate and laws that control it . Not just in Panama but clearly anywhere else the world.

I feel that you are the last person that should be advising anyone on where or how they should be spending the money.

Please as a final note this is a forum where people can discuss property and countries in a civilised manner which clearly as a newbie to this forum you have not grasped this idea and see this is a platform for you to vent and attack.

Please in future i ask that you use the forum in a more mature and adult way.

I am sure everyone gets it that you dont like Panama.

 

[Diligent]

Well, firstly, as a newbie, one of the first things I noticed about these forums is the large number of people that seem to have been ripped off by dodgy agents and/or developers or promoters. Second, my attention was drawn to Panama because it's a country I've visited and have a tremendous liking for. Third in reading the Panama thread the only contributions seemed to come from a handful (literally) of posters who were, in my opinion, inflating the current potential and state of the panama market and had a vested interest in doing so.

Among a very small group of Torchy, panamahouse (and maybe another whose name I forget) it's hardly as if you've been singled out. But you have positioned yourself as the main cheerleader and every posting you make has a link to your website. Inadvertently you've also made me curious by the tone of your answers - increasingly agitated to say the least, dismissive (see above) and now evasive.

I readily admit I'm no real estate expert and I'm sorry to spoil your "party". But since this site is a social forum and not an infomercial you should be prepared to read dissenting opinion and not get upset.

 

[gsinker]

What I dont really understand is the negativity towards a country that you say you like? The reason there is a limited contribution is that this is a new section and will take time to build up.

What is wrong with saying good things about a country, makes a change that just slating a place.

Everything you have said about Panama is common in all other countries in the world in fact sometime worse in other countries.

You say we have inflated the potential and the state of the market, your argument consists of an article on a web site. Considering there is no MLS in Panama i take figures like that with a pinch of salt.

Panama at this point is time is stronger that the majority of other countries when it comes to real estate. The occupancy levels in Panama are higher than most other countries, this was reported in a article in Bloomberg. Even if we dont take to much faith in web based articles just try and book a Hotel in panama and you will see how busy the Hotels are.

This is a forum for people to spread news and opinions but you seem to have taken on a personal quest to attack the users on the is forum and the merits of Panama.

Stop being so negative and start being positive.

Just because buyers are having a hard time in Dubai or Bulgaria why have a go at Panama.

I myself stated that buyers should always seek independent legal advice. If a buyers decides to ignore this advice then what can i or anyone else do to help them? Thats the same in any place in the world.

I still do not understand the comments in the past saying that the legal system here in Panama does little to protect buyers, there is a legal process that will protect them as long as the buyer uses the legal system and does not by pass they system just to try and save a few dollars on the closing costs. This is what typically happens to people all over the globe.

The issues facing people in Dubai and places like Bulgaria are not happening here so why make it sounds as though they are?

As for spoiling my "Party", is that your intention? Not very socialable if it is.

 

[Diligent]

I'm fully in favour of writing good things about Panama - but this is a forum about property investments for retail investors not a travelogue.

If you pay attention the "article" you dismiss was reported in the newspaper but refers to "a study by the economist Osvaldo Lao for the Panamanian Association of Real Estate Agents and Promoters". I'll try and get a copy of the full report and we can discuss specifics.

You say quote "This is a forum for people to spread news and opinions" - I agree but I happen to think that a few facts would be useful too. Bloombergs reporting of hotel vacancies (source?) is certainly useful in context of the Nations project - now you're getting the idea.

Otherwise, statements from a real estate consultant/broker/agent (perhaps you could clarify that by the way. Do you have a license of any sort?) - such as "Panama at this point is time is stronger that the majority of other countries when it comes to real estate" and "The issues facing people in Dubai and places like Bulgaria are not happening here" need to be questioned.

Concerning the legal system - well I have no direct experience so I'd defer your opinion while also pointing out that Torchy in a posting a couple of pages back seems less sure. If you have more faith than that good to hear.

Please don't lecture me on quote "Stop being so negative and start being positive." How about being realistic.

 

[gsinker]

Hi Diligente,

I read your posts in the Bulgaria section of this forum and i see your doing the same thing there as your trying to do on the Panama section.

Are you trying to be the peoples champion, the Robin Hood of Real Estate?

You say your a realist, You information is purey based on other peoples news and reports.

If you have had no first hand experience of both markets then surely you are not really in a postion to comment on these markets as you could miss guide the people your so called trying to help.

People and organistions commission reports everyday, if you have worked in the real estate industry you will know that by the time the reports are published they are out of date.

You talk of facts hopwever as an outsider to these countries your facts cannot be verified. If we base our facts on newspaper reports and web site new then there is british Lancaster Bomber on the moon

Bomber Squad

If i had experienced the issues that the people are suffering now in Bulgaria i would find your comments offensive as your just trying to sensationlize there issues for your own gain.

Why dont you just write about the country you live in of the experiences that you yourself have been through. You tell everyone you are an experienced investors well why not share you past experiences that are facts. That would be more of a help to anyone reading this forum.

Your facts not someone elses.

You want a true fact, Sales for me in Panama in the last 2 weeks have doubled. Fact. My friends sales in Panama in the last 2 weeks have increased. Fact

Since seeing your article in the Bulgaria section i can see what your up to.

I know you will post a reply as this is your nature. My self i am done with you.

Why not jump on the Dubai section you can post some more of your facts on there also.

To me, your now just a closed book.

 

[Diligent]

gsinker - since you seem to give me the opportunity of the last word I'll take it with thanks.

I read your posts in the Bulgaria section of this forum and I see you're doing the same thing there as your trying to do on the Panama section.

I actually looked at Bulgaria since you pointed me in that direction but I hope here to underline that information from some agents/promoters/developers can be misleading and should not be taken at face value.

People and organistions commission reports everyday, if you have worked in the real estate industry you will know that by the time the reports are published they are out of date.

But at least they (sometimes) contain facts.

You talk of facts hopwever as an outsider to these countries your facts cannot be verified. If we base our facts on newspaper reports and web site new then there is british Lancaster Bomber on the moon

Bomber Squad

Now you're just being silly

If i had experienced the issues that the people are suffering now in Bulgaria i would find your comments offensive as your just trying to sensationlize there issues for your own gain.

You're surprisingly sensitive then for a real estate "agent".

Why dont you just write about the country you live in of the experiences that you yourself have been through. You tell everyone you are an experienced investors well why not share you past experiences that are facts. That would be more of a help to anyone reading this forum.

I don't recall telling anyone I'm an experienced investor but even so why would anyone looking at investing in Panama be at all interested in my portfolio? Besides you don't have to be very experienced to recognise bull****.

Your facts not someone elses.

You want a true fact, Sales for me in Panama in the last 2 weeks have doubled. Fact. My friends sales in Panama in the last 2 weeks have increased. Fact

Well, I'm glad for you (and your friend) - but what does that say about the market in general and whether or not your clients made a good purchase?

Since seeing your article in the Bulgaria section i can see what your up to.

I know you will post a reply as this is your nature. Correct My self i am done with you.

Why not jump on the Dubai section you can post some more of your facts on there also.

To me, your now just a closed book.
__________________

Well, since this is seemingly the end of my conversation with gsinker I'd just like to emphasise to anyone else reading this (other than gsinkers pals aka fellow promoters and I suppose his "friend") - don't rely on a single source for opinion especially someone with a vested interest in good news only. On the other hand don't take my own currently negative opinion on RE in Panama as necessarily correct either (I think I'm right for now but in a couple of years things might change).

Finally, if it was me, I'd only deal with a reputable and licenced broker.

 

[gsinker]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.................................

 

[PanamaLandInvestments]

100%

I live and work full time in Panama, I have access to all the major developments in Panama and know most of the developers personally.

Panama is an incredible place that is going from an economic and Real Estate boom that is set to continue for a good many years to come.

Very true. Panama is defintely a hot spot on the rise. Developments are filling up with Candaians and Americans right now where I am.

 

[aman12]

I'm not so sure Panama is a good investment right now.

 

[aman12]

Everything you have said about Panama is common in all other countries in the world in fact sometime worse in other countries.