Buying in Morocco

[lurcher21]

Youtube Saidia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCf8_MW2PH

 

[Analist]

Hi everybody,

I am a student of International Business in The Netherlands. At this moment I'm doing a research for my thesis about the prospect of morrocan properties. Anyone who has information about Morrocan properties or have bought one of the properties are welcome to contact me. I need some information for my research, and as a return, I will provide my end and torough analysis about investing in Morrocan Real Estate.

I will appreciate any kind of help.


Thanks.

 

[bess]

Compass Properties have a good reputation in Morocco

This is good news. They do not have a good reputation with those who have used them to buy property. Flats they sold in Mirador Golf were advertised as 65m2, not one flat was this size, all below, mine were 59m2, so having bought two I am minus one whole room. They say serenely that it is legal in Morocco for a property to be up to ten percent smaller than described, no other comment or apology. Many of the bedrooms will only accomodate bunk beds if you wish two people to sleep there and also open the doors of the concrete fitted cupboard. I was charged £400 to remove this cupboard. The compex is a year late in completion, the tennis court, playground, courtesy bus and supermarket promised never appeared. The company will only allow buyers to go through their Canadian lawyers and is registered in Barbados, you need to be a big player to attempt legal remedy and they do not reply to any emails or letters of complaint.

 

[Lee Filkins]

They do not have a good reputation with those who have used them to buy property.

How do you know ?

Flats they sold in Mirador Golf were advertised as 65m2, not one flat was this size, all below, mine were 59m2, so having bought two I am minus one whole room. They say serenely that it is legal in Morocco for a property to be up to ten percent smaller than described,

A good company does not hide behind law & takes law in good faith.

no other comment or apology.

Why should they apologise. An apology does not bring dead man alive.


Many of the bedrooms will only accomodate bunk beds if you wish two people to sleep there and also open the doors of the concrete fitted cupboard.

I was charged £400 to remove this cupboard.

Why did you pay.

The compex is a year late in completion,

This is normal in most Countries.

the tennis court, playground, courtesy bus and supermarket promised never appeared.

You were nieve to believe it will.

The company will only allow buyers to go through their Canadian lawyers

I will not agree to this as a buyer, as I am not buying in Canada.
and is registered in Barbados,

This could be for tax reasons.
you need to be a big player to attempt legal remedy and they do not reply to any emails or
letters of complaint

Why should they do it. Its quite obvious what they are upto and if as a buyer you still buy from them and the likes of similar developers than you are only encouraging them. vote with your feet.

 

[bess]

Camel not sure what your point is?

If you read my message you will know that I 'know' from experience ( and as it happens that of other buyers at Mirador Golf from Compass, the only seller of the flats.)

Surely this forum is for helping advising and warning other users, or would you rather leave the unadorned commendation of Compass without any comment from their customers?

I paid the ransom £400.00 for the cupboard removal, £350 more than the cost, because having bought the flat it would be difficult to rent with only bunks in one bedroom. What would you suggest I should do?

How would you suggest that one should confirm the actual size of the delivered flat when buying off plan? How should one check the day the complex is finished until that day arrives? If it is naive to believe that amenities listed will be built, swimming pool, tennis court etc, how can you compare different investments? I think you smear developers to say that it is internationally normal to complete a year late.

Of course you can decide only to buy something ready built with all the papers. Another way is to ask around and read forums such as this and evaluate what is written.

Are you condemning all who buy off plan? or if not, can I ask you to make the point of your reply more clear?

 

[Lee Filkins]

subject

Camel not sure what your point is?

My point is that when you buy off plan, you really need to do further work than just the view from the windows.

If you read my message you will know that I 'know' from experience ( and as it happens that of other buyers at Mirador Golf from Compass, the only seller of the flats.)

I am not denying it. I know that you are informing others.

Surely this forum is for helping advising and warning other users,

I, agree that this and other forums, although agents will high jack the issues at times.

or would you rather leave the unadorned commendation of Compass without any comment from their customers?

Far from it. Compass are not the only from squeaky clean developers in Morocco.

I paid the ransom £400.00 for the cupboard removal, £350 more than the cost,

I agree it was a ransom and Developers like Compass know that that they have got the buyers by the b..ls

because having bought the flat it would be difficult to rent with only bunks in one bedroom. What would you suggest I should do?

Personally, once I had the keys I would have got a local builder to do it for me at a fraction of the price & make Compass realise that there are people who could not black mailed.


How would you suggest that one should confirm the actual size of the delivered flat when buying off plan?

This is where a good/etihical developrs come into place. a certain cenimeters +/- are acceptable as tolerance in all the Countries. Again its a question of good faith on both sides when you are paying for something you cant see or touch.

How should one check the day the complex is finished until that day arrives? If it is naive to believe that amenities listed will be built, swimming pool, tennis court etc, how can you compare different investments?

You can compare by the developers other finished products & speaking to people who have bought there.

I think you smear developers to say that it is internationally normal to complete a year late.

Its not a smear. Construction project are subject to weather, labour, material shortages and as a result they get delayed.

Of course you can decide only to buy something ready built with all the papers.

Yes, I however feel that even with off plan, you can close the unknowns down. By
electing the right developer with reputation & reputation to protect.


Another way is to ask around and read forums such as this and evaluate what is written.

Yes, agree this forum & all sources. Even sitting in bar having a beer talk to locals. As the case is for Fadesa in the Saidia area.

Are you condemning all who buy off plan? or if not, can I ask you to make the point of your reply more clear?

I hope that I have made my point clear. I am not condemng anyone all I am saying that if you buy from a developer with no track record, chanes lawyers & chose a lawyer in Canada with Company set up in Barbados. THe question comes is, why ? other developers has not taken this route in so far as their Coperate structure. Not replying to e.mails etc further shows that we want your money & dont ask anything & accept what we provide you. A customer is buyinmg a property & not recieving a charity.

Even if you want to sue them any breaches, they will have no assets in Morocco. If a developer is honest & working in good faith they would not hide behind the stated.

So, my friend I was not against off plan buying I have bought off plan in Spain, France & Morocco and is more than happy with them. I got what I was promised & have recommended the developers to others.

 

[bess]

You have bought a flat in Morocco and eventually the complex is ready for it to be let. Speaking French but little Arabic, you go out to furnish and prepare it.
Do you
a)spend the available week asking taxi drivers, passers by or the town hall (because you do not have Moroccan friends) for names of relaible builders willing to do a few hours work with no notice, speak to them and bargain a price having asked to see an example of their work elsewhere. Wait til the plaster has dried an rejoice that you have resisted blackmail. Oh bother , the flat still lacks furniture and anything else.
or
b) Hand over the ransom £400.00, get the flat set up, warn other people ?

To be fair, the complex is in a delightful place, ideally placed for golf, water park, riding, nearby restaurants, Marjane,golden beach (though not on the front line) etc. That is why it is a pity there are shortcomings - why spoil the ship for a ha'porth of tar?
I bought at the beginning through English lawyers who decided not to go on doing business with Compass, then Compass switched to Canadian lawyers.

 

[Lee Filkins]

I agree with what you say. Yes, buying in places where you don't speak the Lingo etc is always challenging & fun in my books.

My comments are not directed towards you. They are for the forum users. The events have there span e.g when you bought the lawyers were English & than the lawyers changed. Not much you could do. But the prospective buyers need to ask a question as to why a firm of lawyers would let a client go.

 

[redangel7861]

I agree with what you say. Yes, buying in places where you don't speak the Lingo etc is always challenging & fun in my books.

My comments are not directed towards you. They are for the forum users. The events have there span e.g when you bought the lawyers were English & than the lawyers changed. Not much you could do. But the prospective buyers need to ask a question as to why a firm of lawyers would let a client go.

I decided to stay well clear of all Compass products. Their corporate structure leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[lurcher21]

I agree with what you say. Yes, buying in places where you don't speak the Lingo etc is always challenging & fun in my books.

My comments are not directed towards you. They are for the forum users. The events have there span e.g when you bought the lawyers were English & than the lawyers changed. Not much you could do. But the prospective buyers need to ask a question as to why a firm of lawyers would let a client go.

You can still get thrown in amongst the wolves over there even if you DO speak the lingo (fluently in our case as we are an Anglo/Moroccan couple) Just accept that corruption is rife - you will not get anything done as it should be done, even at Government departments (especially at Government departments) without paying bribes to everyone from the highest to the lowest official. Even the doorman! Well, you can still get things done but you will wait forever - and they know damn well you are pushed for time so sit around with your dossier on the desk and do nothing. This is a fact - and it is high time prospective purchasers were given all of the relevant information before making the decision to purchase. Our sale completed in March 2008 and we are still waiting to get paid in full! In my opinion Morocco is NOT a place for UK buyers to invest in property. They are too used to everything being done in the UK on the straight and narrow, when involved in matters of property transactions. Morocco is a million miles away from 'straight and narrow'. They see a foreigner over there and the only thing on their mind is rich pickings. In fact - after 30 years of spending a fair bit of time over there I realy do think things are getting worse - not better - as a few years ago the bribes they were asking for were a pittance, but now they have got really greedy. As for renting - BE VERY CAREFUL!!!!!!!!! I personally know a Moroccan lady who is still trying to get a tenant out of her apartment after THREE years of unpaid rent. She is Moroccan (the owner) It is a minefield and you just cannot trust anyone to handle your letting for you while you are abroad. Be warned!

 

[Lee Filkins]

subject

Lurcher21:
Yes, the levels of corruption has increased and its logical as standard of living increases the matrix will increase.

Apart from the corruption the ridiculous laws does not help e.g as a non resident you only allowed to own one property in Morocco. VAT on mortgage interest rate, import duty on used personal belonging etc. This is a perfect ground for breeding corruption.

It saddens me to say that I would not rent to a Moroccan or use a Moroccan Agent for exactly the reasons stated.

 

[redangel7861]

Lurcher21:
Yes, the levels of corruption has increased and its logical as standard of living increases the matrix will increase.

Apart from the corruption the ridiculous laws does not help e.g as a non resident you only allowed to own one property in Morocco. VAT on mortgage interest rate, import duty on used personal belonging etc. This is a perfect ground for breeding corruption.

It saddens me to say that I would not rent to a Moroccan or use a Moroccan Agent for exactly the reasons stated.

Camel, it is sad to see and you are correct the more investment that comes into the country the more rife is the corruption. Also agree with not using Moroccan Agents or renting to Moroccan's.

I'd rather leave my property empty than give it to some crooked agent in Morocco. Hopefully the better developemnts will be employing well establised Management companies to deal with the issues of rentals, many are employing internationally renowned Resort and Management companies.

 

[bess]

Compass Properties appears to be run entirely by Americans, displaying bibles on their desks, the company is registered in Barbados. They employ Moroccan staff who I have never found to be other than helpful and honest in the administrative tasks they carry out. The American running Compass certainly told me that the deficit in size was due to the 'developers' who are Moroccan, but they continued to advertise the flats as a greater square meterage than is the case long after they could not have avoided knowing that this was not accurate, and taking the profit.

I guess there are problems in every country. Official bribery is very rare in England, (below the political sphere where planning permission is swapped for amenities that are seen as political advantages like schools). But try to get a non- paying tenant out who is wrecking your property and the council officials will advise them on how to gain many extra unpaying months by going to court, making a token payment etc. And don't forget that every piece of fabric must have a fire certificate attached (if it fall offs,throw away the settee..),you must pay for an energy efficiency certificate when you change tenants,every gas and electrical appliance must be officially checked yearly, deposits against damage must be lodged with an official paid third party and you cannot use it to repay the unpaid rent,you pay tax on your empty flat while searching for a tenant...

Not of course that I would wish to gas or electrocute or evict my tenants ( and have avoided doing so so far) but keeping up to date with the regulations and filling in ever more forms is a disadvantage of renting property in England.

Taking the rough with the smooth, I have got a beautiful flat (by dint of buying two and joining them) in a lovely place for less than half the price of the equivalent in England. I may be naive, but I have liked the Moroccans I have met who have been friendly and kind - strangers have gone out of their way to help me with little things and not for money. It is the foreigners in Morocco, such as an Irish company, that have tried to con me.

Some nationalities are shocked by public drunken and promiscuous behaviour, others don't mind that much but are shocked by by bribery and nepotism, buying abroad is an adventure and a risk, balancing the plus and minusand working out whether the trade off is worth the profit.

 

[Lee Filkins]

Compass Properties appears to be run entirely by Americans, displaying bibles on their desks,
PART OF THE NEO CONS THAN. WE KNOW WHAT THEY HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO TO THE WORLD.

the company is registered in Barbados. They employ Moroccan staff who I have never found to be other than helpful and honest in the administrative tasks they carry out.

BECAUSE THEY HAVE NOT BEING GIVEN EXPOSURE IN THEIR JOB WHERE THE UNLIMATE FALS ONTO THEM OR MONY GOES TO THEM.

The American running Compass certainly told me that the deficit in size was due to the 'developers' who are Moroccan,

SORRY, CANT ACCEPT THIS APPORTIONMENT OF BLAME. WHAT ROLE ARE PLAYING ARE THEY AGENTS OR DEVELOPERS ???? AS FAR I AM AWARE COMPASS WERE THE DEVELOPERS !!!!


but they continued to advertise the flats as a greater square meterage than is the case long after they could not have avoided knowing that this was not accurate,

IF YOU HAD BEEN SHORT CHANGED ON m2, I THINK YOU CAN BRING THIS TO THE ATTENTION OF THE NOTARY THAT THE m2 IS OUTSIDE THE TOLERANCE AND YOU WILL NOT SIGN AND DEMAND A REFUND OF THE PRICE DIFFERENTAIL ON THE M2. TAKING OFF 5M TO 10M PER APARTMENT WILL GIVE COMPASS SPACE FOR A FEW APARTMENTS TO POCKET THE PROCEEDS.

and taking the profit.

I guess there are problems in every country. Official bribery is very rare in England,

DONT BET ON IT. PLANNING DEPARTMENTS ARE FULL OF IT. THE DIFFERENCE IS THAT IT IS DONE MORE SUBTLY AND NOT ON YOUR FACE.

(below the political sphere where planning permission is swapped for amenities that are seen as political advantages like schools).

But try to get a non- paying tenant out who is wrecking your property and the council officials will advise them on how to gain many extra unpaying months by going to court,

COUNCIL KNOWS IF THEY LEAVE YOUR PROPERTY THE COUNCIL HAS TO HOUSE THEM.
making a token payment etc. And don't forget that every piece of fabric must have a fire certificate attached (if it fall offs,throw away the settee..),you must pay for an energy efficiency certificate when you change tenants,

THEY CAN BLAME THE EU FOR IT. BUT THERE IS VAT IN IT LIKE IN ANOTHER USELESS HIPS.

every gas and electrical appliance must be officially checked yearly, deposits against damage must be lodged with an official paid third party and you cannot use it to repay the unpaid rent,you pay tax on your empty flat while searching for a tenant...

WHAT YOU HAVE OVERLOOKED IS THAT THE DEPOSIT LODGED IS INFORMATION THAT BELONGS TO THE GOVERNMENT AND IS BEING MANUPLATED BY THE GOVERNMENT AND YES ONCE AGAIN THE INSURANCE PREMIUM TAX GOES INTO THE TREASURY.


Not of course that I would wish to gas or electrocute or evict my tenants ( and have avoided doing so so far) but keeping up to date with the regulations and filling in ever more forms is a disadvantage of renting property in England.

AGREE, 100%, IF YOU WANT TO GET OUT OF IT THAN THEY WANT YOUR 18% CAPITAL GAINS.

Taking the rough with the smooth, I have got a beautiful flat (by dint of buying two and joining them) in a lovely place for less than half the price of the equivalent in England. I may be naive, but I have liked the Moroccans I have met who have been friendly and kind - strangers have gone out of their way to help me with little things and not for money.

THEY ARE GOOD & BAD EVERWHERE. YOU CAN KEEP THE GOOD ONES AS FRIENDS ITS THE BAD ONE THAT ARE POLICE, CUSTOMS, TOWN PLANNING, ETC, THE ONES THAT YOU CANT AVOID AS THE SYSTEM PUSHES TOWARDS THEM.


It is the foreigners in Morocco, such as an Irish company, that have tried to con me.

Some nationalities are shocked by public drunken and promiscuous behaviour, others don't mind that much but are shocked by by bribery and nepotism,

WHAT IS ACCEPTABLE IN ONE SOCIETY IS NOT IN ANOTHER. IT IS FOR THIS REASON NO SOCIETY CAN CLAIM THAT THEY ARE RIGHT AND OTHERS ARE NOT.
buying abroad is an adventure and a risk, balancing the plus and minusand working out whether the trade off is worth the profit.
AGREE AND NOT ONLY PROFIT THE KNOWLEDGE THAT ONE GETS IN INVALUABLE. AS WE ALL SHARE ON FORUMS LIKE THIS & OTHERS.




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[esmerelda]

[
Some nationalities are shocked by public drunken and promiscuous behaviour, others don't mind that much but are shocked by by bribery and nepotism,

WHAT IS ACCEPTABLE IN ONE SOCIETY IS NOT IN ANOTHER. IT IS FOR THIS REASON NO SOCIETY CAN CLAIM THAT THEY ARE RIGHT AND OTHERS ARE NOT.
buying abroad is an adventure and a risk, balancing the plus and minusand working out whether the trade off is worth the profit.
AGREE AND NOT ONLY PROFIT THE KNOWLEDGE THAT ONE GETS IN INVALUABLE. AS WE ALL SHARE ON FORUMS LIKE THIS & OTHERS.


In the interests of sharing & picking up on a couple of camel & bess's comments...
Readers to this & other forums will know that we renovated our house successfuly last year. The idea was for start renting from christmas onwards.

Inthe absence of trustworthy established agencies, we had appoint someone as guardian who would meet & greet guests, arrange cleaning, keep up mainenance, repairs etc. We ideally wanted a couple but I was persuaded to use our chap who had been our site supervsior during our build & had done a good job for us.

Things went OK...we had several guests & they were all pretty pleased with the accommodation & our guardian.
On a visit over there a couple of months ago, I discovered that our guardian had been living in the house for 6 months. Had had a number of unsavoury friends round, playing loud music every night into the early hours thereby alienating our (local) neighbours to such an extent that they were considering moving. In addition, he had installed a"girlfriend" for a couple of months (being a working girl if you get my drift!).
Needless to say we fired him...very luckily as it turned out we later discovered he had developed a coke problem this year also!
This was someone who we had worked well with for well over a year, someone that we thought we had developed a good relationship with....you can imagine how we felt!!!
We luckily found someone else that we are trialling now and we shall see how that works out....if not we have a plan C..2 ladies!!!
I hope this experience can stop someone else having the issues that we have had. My advise - get a married couple or ladies to look after you place!

 

[Lee Filkins]

subject

Sorry to hear your problems, but to be honest did not surprise me. Can you please tell me how a couple or a lady would minimise your risk of not ending in the same position.

If the lady could also become a working girl as you so put it.

Nb: I know Asilah very well. I had seen what you had done to your property and was lovely. Not too many coke cans to clear, I hope.

 

[Investy]

Esmerelda, I know a UK letting agent that has abused landlords trust here in the UK, even to the extent of driving the car they left in the garage over a period of months and then clocking the mileage back!
It is with this knowledge that I felt safer investing in Saidia, as to go alone would be too stressful for me (you mentioned in the past buying off plan seemed to stressful for you - horses for courses eh!)

I hope it all works out ok. I like to see the best in everyone but unfortunately people do have a habit of being untrustworthy.

The point for me here is that the fact it's Morocco is neither here nor there, these things can happen anywhere.

 

[esmerelda]

Sorry to hear your problems, but to be honest did not surprise me. Can you please tell me how a couple or a lady would minimise your risk of not ending in the same position.

If the lady could also become a working girl as you so put it.

Nb: I know Asilah very well. I had seen what you had done to your property and was lovely. Not too many coke cans to clear, I hope.

The issues we had stemmed from employing a young-(ish) -well 32yrs, single man.
Perhaps I need to speak plainer, the "lady" that was in our house was a prostitute. She was "installed" there for 2 months & there were other visitors of a similar nature. That is what I meant by a "working girl" - very different from !!
The coke I refer to is not the kind you drink - but what you put up your nose.
I think maybe now you see our concerns??

 

[esmerelda]

I hope it all works out ok. I like to see the best in everyone but unfortunately people do have a habit of being untrustworthy.

The point for me here is that the fact it's Morocco is neither here nor there, these things can happen anywhere.[/QUOTE]


Yes I agree that this type of thing could have happened anywhere. My object in posting was not to impugn Morocco per se, but just to make sure people were aware of the kind of abuses that are apparenty pretty common over there.

I have always been pretty straightforward about what we did/didn;t do, what worked for us/didn;t etc, as on these forums you get a lot of opinion & a lot of it comes over as rank posturing!

I feel it's important that where people can, they speak from their own experience - good or bad. Well after many happy experiences in Morocco, this was for us, a real kick in the guts!!

We felt it more deeply given that we thought we had established a good working relationship with this guy, as I say he had done good work in the past for us.
We are just sad about the whole thing really...but...as I say we have a Plan B so we will see how that works out.

 

[redangel7861]

I hope it all works out ok. I like to see the best in everyone but unfortunately people do have a habit of being untrustworthy.

The point for me here is that the fact it's Morocco is neither here nor there, these things can happen anywhere.

Yes I agree that this type of thing could have happened anywhere. My object in posting was not to impugn Morocco per se, but just to make sure people were aware of the kind of abuses that are apparenty pretty common over there.

I have always been pretty straightforward about what we did/didn;t do, what worked for us/didn;t etc, as on these forums you get a lot of opinion & a lot of it comes over as rank posturing!

I feel it's important that where people can, they speak from their own experience - good or bad. Well after many happy experiences in Morocco, this was for us, a real kick in the guts!!

We felt it more deeply given that we thought we had established a good working relationship with this guy, as I say he had done good work in the past for us.
We are just sad about the whole thing really...but...as I say we have a Plan B so we will see how that works out.

You make some valid points.


In my opinion a lot of these problems will be ironed out once resort companies are put in place to manage the larger developments.

Rgds
RED